MBA in Germany


Uns_De
Hello ,
I am planning to do MBA from Germany . Currently I work as Associate Project Manager in Automotive domain with experience of 7.5 years. I also had worked in Germany and I speak intermediate German (currently doing B1) .My plan is to leverage my experience in this domain by studying a best MBA program in Germany .Currently I prepare for GMAt as my score was low (550). I have done few research about MBA programs in Germany and comes out with below list of colleges . I have posted few questions below. I would appreciate if you can give me some inputs on my questions
1.HHL
2.Mannheim
3.WHU
4.ESMT
5.Gisma
6.Frankfurt Business school
7.Pforzeim MBA
8.Esslingen MBA
7.Hochschule Bremen.

1.)I can see a huge difference in tution fees from colleges like MBS,HHL, ESMT compared to Hochschule MBA's - Pforzheim /Esslingen . Is there any huge difference in quality of studies?
2) What are the carrer chances post MBA , assuming you join course with intermmidate German language skill - B1
3)How good you rate program @ GISMA and also how students in GISMA are treated in German industry . I have few specific reasons to choose as it is one of real contender for me.
Hello ,
I am planning to do MBA from Germany . Currently I work as Associate Project Manager in Automotive domain with experience of 7.5 years. I also had worked in Germany and I speak intermediate German (currently doing B1) .My plan is to leverage my experience in this domain by studying a best MBA program in Germany .Currently I prepare for GMAt as my score was low (550). I have done few research about MBA programs in Germany and comes out with below list of colleges . I have posted few questions below. I would appreciate if you can give me some inputs on my questions
1.HHL
2.Mannheim
3.WHU
4.ESMT
5.Gisma
6.Frankfurt Business school
7.Pforzeim MBA
8.Esslingen MBA
7.Hochschule Bremen.

1.)I can see a huge difference in tution fees from colleges like MBS,HHL, ESMT compared to Hochschule MBA's - Pforzheim /Esslingen . Is there any huge difference in quality of studies?
2) What are the carrer chances post MBA , assuming you join course with intermmidate German language skill - B1
3)How good you rate program @ GISMA and also how students in GISMA are treated in German industry . I have few specific reasons to choose as it is one of real contender for me.
quote
Duncan
1. Yes. There are huge differences in the quality and in the career outcomes for students. You can search this discussion board for posts comparing these schools.

2. B1 is is low-intermediate, so outcomes would depend on how long the course was (shorter courses are more intense, so you'll have less time to study German), the setting (whether the school is in a German-speaking campus, so you get the chance to use your German) and how much time the course includes for learning German. I think you'd need C1 or C2 to find work, so that will be around 1000 hours of instruction from the beginner level, or 600 hours on top of B1. I don't see how you can do that during most MBAs.

3. I don't rate GISMA at all. The school went bust, and the brand was bought by GUS, the for-profit school that runs LSBF. I suggest you search Google News for LSBF. The old GISMA was pretty good. The new GISMA doesn't employ any academic staff: just visiting staff who will fly in and out. I would recommend a non-profit school.
1. Yes. There are huge differences in the quality and in the career outcomes for students. You can search this discussion board for posts comparing these schools.

2. B1 is is low-intermediate, so outcomes would depend on how long the course was (shorter courses are more intense, so you'll have less time to study German), the setting (whether the school is in a German-speaking campus, so you get the chance to use your German) and how much time the course includes for learning German. I think you'd need C1 or C2 to find work, so that will be around 1000 hours of instruction from the beginner level, or 600 hours on top of B1. I don't see how you can do that during most MBAs.

3. I don't rate GISMA at all. The school went bust, and the brand was bought by GUS, the for-profit school that runs LSBF. I suggest you search Google News for LSBF. The old GISMA was pretty good. The new GISMA doesn't employ any academic staff: just visiting staff who will fly in and out. I would recommend a non-profit school.
quote
maury
You'll have to ask most of these schools for placement stats, because most don't publish them unfortunately, but what I think you'll find is that the schools where the fees are higher will have much better post-MBA salaries than those where the cost is lower. ROI and all that jazz. For reference, the average salary of 2013 ESMT grads is around 87,000 EUR.

Agreed with Duncan about Gisma. I wouldn't consider it if you have these other options on your list.
You'll have to ask most of these schools for placement stats, because most don't publish them unfortunately, but what I think you'll find is that the schools where the fees are higher will have much better post-MBA salaries than those where the cost is lower. ROI and all that jazz. For reference, the average salary of 2013 ESMT grads is around 87,000 EUR.

Agreed with Duncan about Gisma. I wouldn't consider it if you have these other options on your list.
quote
Deven0318
Nice list. Don't forget about the other accredited MBA options in Germany, namely EBS and HWR Berlin.
Nice list. Don't forget about the other accredited MBA options in Germany, namely EBS and HWR Berlin.
quote
Duncan
HWR doesn't claim to have good placement.
HWR doesn't claim to have good placement.
quote
Deven0318
I never said it did. I just wanted to make sure this person knew that there were some other options in the country to add to his list.
I never said it did. I just wanted to make sure this person knew that there were some other options in the country to add to his list.
quote
Yojuandal
Trying to make up my mind between Esslingen, EBS, and Prorzheim, any advice?
Trying to make up my mind between Esslingen, EBS, and Prorzheim, any advice?
quote
Duncan
Focus on your goals.
Focus on your goals.
quote
Uns_De
Hi Duncan,

You have mentioned there is huge difference in the quality and career outcomes for students when comparing between universities such as HHL , WHU and Hochschule such as Esslinge n ,Pforzheim .What exactly you meant ? Can you pls explain ? As per a feedback from one of my friend in Germany , he says quality level difference is not much and he told me if you are looking for Job in Germany after studies, MBA's in - Hochschule are pretty good as German industry doesn't distinguish between these universities and private MBA's.


2. Regarding language skill , I am B1 level and have experience of working in Germany. So I hope language can be improved but really don't have much idea about how the German market is for international students and what is the expectation?

3. GISMA is located in place very near I have worked in Germany .So I know this place well. It was location preference . Also current MBA program in GISMA is (AMBA accredited) and they focus on German language course .This given me more confident about the course . Can you pls give me some deatiled info/ feedback about this?

My reason for choosing Germany over UK is that (can you give your thoughts also for this)
->I already have experience working in Germany.
->Knows basic German , which I hope can be improved.
->German economy , so expect a good job market
->Also in UK , there is no post study visa ...
Hi Duncan,

You have mentioned there is huge difference in the quality and career outcomes for students when comparing between universities such as HHL , WHU and Hochschule such as Esslinge n ,Pforzheim .What exactly you meant ? Can you pls explain ? As per a feedback from one of my friend in Germany , he says quality level difference is not much and he told me if you are looking for Job in Germany after studies, MBA's in - Hochschule are pretty good as German industry doesn't distinguish between these universities and private MBA's.


2. Regarding language skill , I am B1 level and have experience of working in Germany. So I hope language can be improved but really don't have much idea about how the German market is for international students and what is the expectation?

3. GISMA is located in place very near I have worked in Germany .So I know this place well. It was location preference . Also current MBA program in GISMA is (AMBA accredited) and they focus on German language course .This given me more confident about the course . Can you pls give me some deatiled info/ feedback about this?

My reason for choosing Germany over UK is that (can you give your thoughts also for this)
->I already have experience working in Germany.
->Knows basic German , which I hope can be improved.
->German economy , so expect a good job market
->Also in UK , there is no post study visa ...
quote
Duncan
1. Your friend might be right if they are speaking about German-language programmes in state universities, but it's clearly not the case for MBAs, or for MSc programmes at the top business schools. Salries show how different the outcomes are.

2. I'm not sure what you are asking.

3.Read the threads on this site about GISMA. Actually, the GISMA degree is not AMBA accredited. This year the GISMA students will get a second qualification from MSM. GISMA itself has a difficult history because of its recent bankruptcy and purchase by a troubled Russian business.

There's lots of discussion on this board already about Germany, by myself and others.

[Edited by Duncan on May 02, 2015]

1. Your friend might be right if they are speaking about German-language programmes in state universities, but it's clearly not the case for MBAs, or for MSc programmes at the top business schools. Salries show how different the outcomes are.

2. I'm not sure what you are asking.

3.Read the threads on this site about GISMA. Actually, the GISMA degree is not AMBA accredited. This year the GISMA students will get a second qualification from MSM. GISMA itself has a difficult history because of its recent bankruptcy and purchase by a troubled Russian business.

There's lots of discussion on this board already about Germany, by myself and others.
quote
Uns_De
Hello Duncan,

Thanks for your reply . From your reply , I understood below points

1. There is considerable difference in MBA from State Universities (Hochschule such as Esslingen / Pforzheim) , when compared to other MBA programmes such as (ESMT , HHL, WHU) atleast in terms of ROI.
But what are the chances students getting job in Germany after studying in these Hochschules .(Pforzeim /.Esslingen MBA /Hochschule Bremen. ) ?


2. My question : For getting a job in Germany after MBA ,what is the language skill expectation from students for the employers ?

3. I will do some search about other threads GISMA and get back to you.

If you can give feedback about below point , it would be helpful.

My reason for choosing Germany over UK is that
->I already have experience working in Germany.
->Knows basic /intermediate German(B1 level) , which I hope can be improved.
->Post MBA would like to work in Automotive domain.
->Post study Visa regulations .
->But not sure how opportunities are for international students in MBA ?
Hello Duncan,

Thanks for your reply . From your reply , I understood below points

1. There is considerable difference in MBA from State Universities (Hochschule such as Esslingen / Pforzheim) , when compared to other MBA programmes such as (ESMT , HHL, WHU) atleast in terms of ROI.
But what are the chances students getting job in Germany after studying in these Hochschules .(Pforzeim /.Esslingen MBA /Hochschule Bremen. ) ?


2. My question : For getting a job in Germany after MBA ,what is the language skill expectation from students for the employers ?

3. I will do some search about other threads GISMA and get back to you.

If you can give feedback about below point , it would be helpful.

My reason for choosing Germany over UK is that
->I already have experience working in Germany.
->Knows basic /intermediate German(B1 level) , which I hope can be improved.
->Post MBA would like to work in Automotive domain.
->Post study Visa regulations .
->But not sure how opportunities are for international students in MBA ?

quote
Duncan
1. Personally I would not translate Fachhochschule as State University, with capital letters, since that suggests a comparison with State Universities in the USA, like SUNY or GSU. Clearly each school has to be assessed differently: The CHE ranking is a powerful tool. Also remember that Germany has a regional labour market rather than a national one. Pforzheim and Esslingen get similar outcomes to MSc programmes from traditional universities because they have strong and selective programmes. Bremen is much weaker.

2. Of course, they key is speaking German to a professional level if you want a professional role: C1 or C2. Unless, of course, you are a top-flight investment banker in Frankfurt (and, of course, they are not hired from Pforzheim or Esslingen.

3. Considering your interest in automotive, Pforzheim and Esslingen are the obvious schools. Read the posts which mention them and automotive such as http://board.find-mba.com/europe/hs-pforzheim-vs-hs-esslingen--22624 and http://board.find-mba.com/europe/industrial-management-at-esslingen-16925

The MSc and MBA rankings show good opportunities for graduates in Germany. Cleary there are limits placed by language skills. My recommendation, to someone wanting to work in Germany's auto industry, would always be to consider not an MBA but instead a full-time DSH course followed by an MSc taught in German.
1. Personally I would not translate Fachhochschule as State University, with capital letters, since that suggests a comparison with State Universities in the USA, like SUNY or GSU. Clearly each school has to be assessed differently: The CHE ranking is a powerful tool. Also remember that Germany has a regional labour market rather than a national one. Pforzheim and Esslingen get similar outcomes to MSc programmes from traditional universities because they have strong and selective programmes. Bremen is much weaker.

2. Of course, they key is speaking German to a professional level if you want a professional role: C1 or C2. Unless, of course, you are a top-flight investment banker in Frankfurt (and, of course, they are not hired from Pforzheim or Esslingen.

3. Considering your interest in automotive, Pforzheim and Esslingen are the obvious schools. Read the posts which mention them and automotive such as http://board.find-mba.com/europe/hs-pforzheim-vs-hs-esslingen--22624 and http://board.find-mba.com/europe/industrial-management-at-esslingen-16925

The MSc and MBA rankings show good opportunities for graduates in Germany. Cleary there are limits placed by language skills. My recommendation, to someone wanting to work in Germany's auto industry, would always be to consider not an MBA but instead a full-time DSH course followed by an MSc taught in German.
quote
Hi Duncan,
Recently I received an admit from the Cologne Business School in Germany. Even though I couldn't make out much about the school's future prospects in terms of ROI, average salary post graduation, I however consulted the CHE Rankings and found the school to be in the top bracket. Also, the school is only FIBAA accrediated.

Your expert views about the school would be helpful here since I am from India and spending 2 years in Germany would cost much. Hence, a better ROI is expected. I have just beginner level German language certification (B1).
Hi Duncan,
Recently I received an admit from the Cologne Business School in Germany. Even though I couldn't make out much about the school's future prospects in terms of ROI, average salary post graduation, I however consulted the CHE Rankings and found the school to be in the top bracket. Also, the school is only FIBAA accrediated.

Your expert views about the school would be helpful here since I am from India and spending 2 years in Germany would cost much. Hence, a better ROI is expected. I have just beginner level German language certification (B1).
quote
Duncan
I am not sure what your background or goals are, but obviously there are better options than that school.
I am not sure what your background or goals are, but obviously there are better options than that school.
quote
I am working in IT for the last 3 years, having TOEFL of 105 and GMAT of 650. I'm not sure if 650 will be good enough for Otto Beisham or ESMT. I haven't applied there though. I am trying to focus my future career mainly upon the German market, particularly in marketing.

I would like to know if Cologne Business School can provide me with the career orientation i expect. And considering that I'll be spending roughly 30,000 Euros during my stay, how would be the ROI?
I am working in IT for the last 3 years, having TOEFL of 105 and GMAT of 650. I'm not sure if 650 will be good enough for Otto Beisham or ESMT. I haven't applied there though. I am trying to focus my future career mainly upon the German market, particularly in marketing.

I would like to know if Cologne Business School can provide me with the career orientation i expect. And considering that I'll be spending roughly 30,000 Euros during my stay, how would be the ROI?
quote
Duncan
I think that's a riskier investment than a intensive full-time DSH course followed by an MSc in Marketing taught in German.
I think that's a riskier investment than a intensive full-time DSH course followed by an MSc in Marketing taught in German.
quote
Thanks for the info :) Just one more question. Are certified German courses from Goethe institute (in India) have the same value as of those full-time DSH courses in Germany? And will those certificates be considered while applying for MBA in future and while searching for a job there?

[Edited by ayan_halder on May 22, 2015]

Thanks for the info :) Just one more question. Are certified German courses from Goethe institute (in India) have the same value as of those full-time DSH courses in Germany? And will those certificates be considered while applying for MBA in future and while searching for a job there?
quote
Duncan
Broadly speaking, the Goethe Institut qualifications are very well respected. You can see on the admissions pages that they typically ask for the DSH: http://www.wiso.uni-erlangen.de/masterstudiengaenge/marketing/bewerbung/ and the Institut in many places provides support for the DSH http://www.goethe.de/ins/de/spr/int/dsh/enindex.htm I think employers will be happy with the Goethe Institut qualifications but some universities will insist on the DSH.
Broadly speaking, the Goethe Institut qualifications are very well respected. You can see on the admissions pages that they typically ask for the DSH: http://www.wiso.uni-erlangen.de/masterstudiengaenge/marketing/bewerbung/ and the Institut in many places provides support for the DSH http://www.goethe.de/ins/de/spr/int/dsh/enindex.htm I think employers will be happy with the Goethe Institut qualifications but some universities will insist on the DSH.
quote
Duncan
Context: https://www.uni-frankfurt.de/43663985/aktuelles
Context: https://www.uni-frankfurt.de/43663985/aktuelles
quote
Uns_De
Hello Duncan ,

From the list of schools I listed in my first post , I got admit for Pforzheim MBA. I like to get some more info/ feedback about this program. I am comparing most of the points with HHL MBA as it was another program I applied , but unfortunately couldn't get admit there . Can you pls give your thoughts / feedback on below points.

1) Post MBA opportunities from Pforzheim: I have around 8 years experience in automotive and post MBA , I plan to work in product mangement roles in Automotive sector.

2)Hochschule Degree: This program is AACSB accredited program .But in some post I read Hochschule's are not treated like universities by German companies. I am not clear with this? My question is, having a fair amount of experience (8 yrs) ,post MBA program can I expect a middle level management roles or only entry level (management trainee roles)?

3)ROI : I understood one cannot compare the initial ROI (in terms of Salary) of Prozheim with that of MBA prorgams at HHL /Mannheim . But is this applicable only for initial job / placement ?

Below are key attracting things I noticed with this program .
What is your opinion on this ?
1) One of best Hochschule MBA in Germany - (AACSB accredited), but don't know how Hochschule MBA are treated in Germany?
2)Rated as top 10 MS program by DAAD.
3)German language program integrated in curiculum , which is highly recommended for a job in Germany.
4)Internship / company projects and thesis
5)Affordable tuition fees compared to private Schools.


Apart from Pforzheim MBA , I have 2 offers from Uk business schools. (Henley Business school and Strathclyde Business School). I will keep separate thread for this discussion .

[Edited by Uns_De on Jul 03, 2015]

Hello Duncan ,

From the list of schools I listed in my first post , I got admit for Pforzheim MBA. I like to get some more info/ feedback about this program. I am comparing most of the points with HHL MBA as it was another program I applied , but unfortunately couldn't get admit there . Can you pls give your thoughts / feedback on below points.

1) Post MBA opportunities from Pforzheim: I have around 8 years experience in automotive and post MBA , I plan to work in product mangement roles in Automotive sector.

2)Hochschule Degree: This program is AACSB accredited program .But in some post I read Hochschule's are not treated like universities by German companies. I am not clear with this? My question is, having a fair amount of experience (8 yrs) ,post MBA program can I expect a middle level management roles or only entry level (management trainee roles)?

3)ROI : I understood one cannot compare the initial ROI (in terms of Salary) of Prozheim with that of MBA prorgams at HHL /Mannheim . But is this applicable only for initial job / placement ?

Below are key attracting things I noticed with this program .
What is your opinion on this ?
1) One of best Hochschule MBA in Germany - (AACSB accredited), but don't know how Hochschule MBA are treated in Germany?
2)Rated as top 10 MS program by DAAD.
3)German language program integrated in curiculum , which is highly recommended for a job in Germany.
4)Internship / company projects and thesis
5)Affordable tuition fees compared to private Schools.


Apart from Pforzheim MBA , I have 2 offers from Uk business schools. (Henley Business school and Strathclyde Business School). I will keep separate thread for this discussion .
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