Hi Carina,

I could not make a specific recommendation for you without really understanding your background and goals and then really seeing which career paths are viable for you from these schools. I think you can narrow the focus to either energy or consulting (more more narrowly to energy consulting) and then see which are the best schools. I am not sure that these are the four best schools for any of those options and, as the mention of Cranfield shows, there might be better schools available to you.

As always, I counsel extreme caution about using the undergraduate rankings like CUG. For example, it lists the top UK schools as: Bath, St Andrews, London School of Economics, Warwick, Loughborough, Durham, University College London, King's College London, Exeter. Of these only Warwick is a top MBA. It would be mistaken to look away from LBS, Oxbridge, Manchester, Imperial, Cass and Cranfield -- the UK's other top schools -- because of that.
PS Even if those top schools are beyond your reach, Lancaster, Strathclyde and Birmingham are options to consider.

[Edited by Duncan on May 26, 2015]

A good idea to compile the list!

(Long Post Alert!)

I am an aspirant from one of the most competitive applicant groups. Indian, IT, Male with a GMAT Score of 710 (Q 49, V 37). I have 7+ years of work experience in Product Development and Support profile in various companies. I am currently working in SAP Labs India (Not working on ERP but on other products of SAP) and we have parts of our team in other countries. My last performance ratings were Extraordinary Achiever at workplace.

Other Achievements/Extra Curricular in my profile.

- Patent Application in US PTO with my name as Sole Inventor.
- Author of thought leadership article published in SAP Book of Thoughts. Youngest author in the book.
- A couple of performance awards at workplace.
- Have been speaker at many events, member of organizing committee for some events and also started and managed an employee club at workplace.
- Have handled significant positions in election campaigns also for a particular party too.
- Partner at a real estate and construction company started by me and my family (Worked on 2-3 projects only).

Now, I am not sure how much these achievements will set me apart or provide me an advantage over other applicants from this competitive applicant pool. I find that many applicant from the same background as mine also have stellar achievements to boast about.

I have been applying to Indian Business schools for past 3-4 years because I believe that this is where I have best chances of getting in and finding a job easily after graduation. Also, Indian B Schools have been faring well in the various Rankings. I get always invited for an interview but get dinged later (I am working on that) by schools such as ISB, IIM A,B,C and L.

Now, this time I am also thinking of applying to schools outside India (Global Exposure + I can afford it now + In case I an unable to get into Indian B Schools of my choice). With my work experience, it makes more sense to opt for 1 year MBA, also due to the fact that I am married with a kid. While, it will not be easy to get an admit considering the dings from Indian B Schools, but I am working on my interviews now and am hopeful of better performance this time. But there is another problem as of now I am concerned about, and that is identifying the schools to apply to.
I am looking to get back into job market at the earliest and would be looking for B Schools with best placement figures for International students. I will be looking for jobs in IT Consulting or Product/Project Management in IT industry (makes more sense to me).

As Far as the compiled list goes, it appears that following are the only options I have, with my concerns listed in brackets (Which I have gathered after going through lots of posts on this forum):

1) LBS (Expensive and More than 1 yr)
(No Work Visa after graduation and not so good market)
2) Cambridge, Oxford, Warwick or Cranfield and other UK schools etc (No Work Visa after graduation and not so good market)
3) IMD,IE, IESE, HEC, Esade, Mannheim, St Gallen etc (Language barrier since I am conversant in only English). And going for 1 year full time MSc in language is NOT an option for me.
4) AGSM, Melbourne (Talked to Indians working in Australia, no one recommended to study there due to not so good local job market for MBAs)
5) China, Hong Kong, Korea etc (Language Barrier).
6) Scandinavia (Dearth of jobs).
7) Netherlands (I have been to Netherlands and I love it but local schools have mixed reviews and I cannot afford to take risks at this stage in life)
8) US B Schools (2 year MBA + Expensive + Younger Class Profile). I also read a post on this forum which basically recommends against going to US schools to international students. I am not so sure about that post because from my experience and interactions, if you study from a top 20 US B School, you have a pretty good chance of landing a job in US as it is the largest consumer of MBA talent. Also, I have rarely seen any of my fellows come back to India after studying in US. On the contrary, almost everyone who studied in Europe has come back to India either immediately or after working for a couple of years in Europe.

Now, it appears to me that the only options I have left are India and Singapore. Earlier, I was considering some schools in Germany such as Mannheimm, ESMT and other international schools such as INSEAD, IE, Copenhagen, CEIBS but after reading so many posts on this forum advising against going to such nations if one is not well versed in local dialect, I am beginning to change my mind. I talked to a couple of known students from Oxford, IE, Copenhagen and they confirmed my concerns.

I would like to hear views of experienced advisers on this. It would be of great help. Thanks.

[Edited by Maverick85 on Jun 05, 2015]

Since you want to move faster in the same career path, why not speak to SAP about taking an executive MBA? The WUST MBA in Mumbai is great value.

Hello Duncan,

First of all, Thank you for your response.

Secondly, if only things were as simple as that. SAP does not sponsor EMBA in India. There used to be similar policy 3 years ago but it was discontinued and there is no such option now. There are options to pursue further education in technology though. Even if there were options for EMBA, I have seen that people who completed their EMBA via SAP 3 years ago still continued to follow same career path as they would have done without obtaining the EMBA becuase they were absorbed back in same technology profiles as prior to their EMBA! So what is the point in doing it?

Also, the way I see MBA is not just business education and a platform for higher position, but also as an opportunity to network and obtain global exposure.

Because of the above mentioned 2 reasons I am more inclined towards a full time MBA.

Best Regards.

Do you want to work outside India, if not why not fund your own EMBA and use it to leave SAP? How about the Cornell STEM MBA in NYC? Certainly Singapore is fine.

Yes, I would like to work outside India (Especially Europe). EMBA generally requires more than 10 years of work experience, and EMBA generally has less acceptance in India especially in IT industry. I agree that Singapore is fine and I would be applying there. Singapore has 2 schools of my choice, NUS and Nanyang and getting into both of them is very competitive (Entire Asia seems to be applying there :) )

About US, my concerns are listed above and a post on this forum adds to that about Not being able to find jobs or get a work permit after graduation, though I am not sure how true is that. However, Cornell STEM MBA looks interesting. They want everyone selected as part of first round to travel to their Campus all across the world for further assessment! With only 47 places up for grabs and being not a standard program, doesn't look lucrative enough to travel all across the world with lets assume 50% chances of being dinged.

Thanks.

I'm having some trouble understanding the way you are looking at things. If you want to work in Europe, why not take a top MBA in Europe. Indeed, you would need to apply for a work permit, but you'd also need to find an apartment. These are simply the things that international professionals do. If you attend a top MBA in Europe and use your time averagely well, then you are more or less assured to get a job offer. Under such circumstances, there is no risk that you will be prevented from getting a work permit.

The other thing I don't understand is why you rule out a longer MBA. Unlike some US schools, your work experience would not be substatially more than the average in European MBAs. A longer MBA would provide internships and more time for job hunting and language learning. And there are options between one and two years: At, LBS, for example, you have 15, 18 or 21 months; at ESADE 12, 15 or 18 months, at HHL.... and so on and so on.

Certainly, there are some schools in Europe that have been more affected by the credit crunch, and the 2015 FT rankings show that the class of 2012 was struggling to find work after MBAs at schools like Vlerick, Manchester, Cass and TIAS. But That was a long time ago, in MBA terms, and the job market is stronger. Even then, schools like St Gallen, Bath, LBS, IE, Lancaster and Mannheim were placing over 90% of students into work within 3 months. That is, by the picky and entrepreneurial standards of MBA students in Europe, amazingly high. It certainly shows that if you have a very specific job outcome in mind and are attempting a high degree of transition, that you need to budget for that. But if you can get into the sort of programmes that I recommend on this post, then it's unlikely that you will fail to find work quickly. And... imagine if after an MBA at Mannheim it takes you 6 months of combined job hunting and language learnign before you find an amazing job (which sounds very unlikely, considering your background) is an 18 month investment really too much to transform your life?

Dear Duncan,

Thank you for such a positive post.

I think I did not make my point about work permits properly. I did not mean the standard process but the fact that some countries like UK had abolished the practice of giving work permit to international students post graduation and it has not been brought back as of yet.

While work permit is secondary concern, the primary concern was getting the jobs (No use having work permit if one cannot find jobs).

I agree with your recommendations of LBS, Mannheim (Which would require me to learn German if I take your pointers), INSEAD, HHL etc. and I am not averse to the idea of MBA slightly longer than the 1 year standard program, provided I get into top 10-15 programs in Europe.

I do realize that getting into top 15 program is not going to be easy for my background (Indian IT Male).

I also talked to a couple of Indian students studying in IE school and they recommended against applying, unless one is fluent in Spanish and they were also not happy with the Career Services.
Regarding international mobility, IE may be ranked high in your list but it places about 30-40% of their students in Latin America and very few students in local job market, which would again require Spanish Fluency. So it is not a complete picture.

Regarding Melbourne, my brother graduated from there and I can confirm that the career services were not one of the best and so is the economy and international mobility .

Nonetheless, your post is very encouraging and I will try to apply to INSEAD, LBS, IMD, Oxbridge, Mannheim and ESMT at least. (Still confused between ESMT and Mannheim though and would like to hear form you on the comparison).

Thank you once again.

It is simply not true to say that "some countries like UK had abolished the practice of giving work permit to international students post graduation". The UK has continuously had the policy that people who require permission to work for an employer here must get a written job offer before a permit is issued for that role. What is new, in Germany, the UK and many other countries, is a minimum wage level. If you graduate from one of the top schools with a good placement record, then you will have no trouble getting a work permit in any European country if you are offered an MBA-type role. Of course there are great schools that struggle to place students (Vlerick and Manchester, in 2012 for example), and there are schools with high placement rates into roles with low salaries (Aalto, Montpellier, Prague): those schools are not on my list above.

It certainly helps to get into a top 15 programme, but it's not necessary if you goal is simply to find an MBA-type role in Europe. Again, look at the list above. Birmingham, Strathclyde, Bath, Lancaster and so on have great placement.

As for the comments about IE and Mannheim, learning languages is not like learning brain surgery, and considering the richness of languages in India I am sure that Indians understand that very well. Read my post on learning the language: obviously it is also part of looking keen to employers and making yourself feel happier and more successful in the host country.

ESMT and Mannheim are totally different schools. Again, take a look at LinkedIn and the placement data to compare. Year after year, ESMT is placing more and more of its students into Germany: it's now around 4 in 5. It's a small school and highly entrepreneurial. Mannheim is bigger, more corporate, better located and even safer.

[Edited by Duncan on Jun 07, 2015]

Thank you Duncan for adressing my concerns.
One last question I have is that with my profile should I also look to apply in Scandinivia (CBS, BI Norweigian etc)?
Also, RSM Rotterdam?

[Edited by Maverick85 on Jun 07, 2015]

No, these are not as good at placing international students as the schools listed above. CBS' weak placement is discussed elsewhere here, BI does not have a full-time MBA.

Hi Duncan

I have came from about ESB BSchool Reutlingen (http://www.esb-business-school.de/en/business-school.html). I have saw this school in DAAD Websites and inquired about this school. As the fees for MBA Full-Time 1 year is very less i.e 6900 Euros. The Program coordinator said, its a Government Funded and State University, so fees are less. Could you please tell me, what are the job opportunities after studying from ESB ? And i checked in eduniversal website ranking(http://www.eduniversal-ranking.com/business-school-university-ranking-in-germany.html), and it says that it ranks 11 or 12th rank in Germany. Could you please help me. As the fees are very less compare to other bschools, and i dont need to take any heavy bank loans for it.
Can you also tell me, difference between State University and Private University and which is good in term of study, job placements, faculty etc.
Could you also please tell me about other Univ i.e. Essligen . Hoschule Bremen, HWR Berlin School of Economic & Law

Thanks
Nishant

Hi Nishant. Take a look at the LinkedIn method listed on my profile page, and search the board. ESB is okay: a colleague of mine studied there. You will get similar outcomes to second of third tier MSc students.

Hi Duncan

Just 1 correction in my posts above. "I have came across ESB and planning to take admission into this ESB BSchool."
Thank you very much for your response. I will try to search in your Linkedin. Can you please tell, i didn't get you completely "similar outcomes to second of third tier MSc students".
Can you also post your Linkedin link, as i am unable to find your linkedin profile page.

Thanks in advance
Nishant

Click on my name. The article is linked is on my profile page here on this website.

Take a look at the note at the bottom of http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/masters-in-management-2014 It explains the four tiers of MSc programmes. I think an ESB MBA would lead to broadly similar outcomes, so after three years of work salaries of 50 to 55,000 Euro, assuming that you were fluent in the language.

Thanks Duncan.

Fluent in language , means either in German, or English or MBA Course, which i have studied? And taking admissions to ESB Reutlingen, is this a good deal? As tuition fees are very less and State Funded.

Thanks
Nishant

I mean fluent in German, since that is the working language for most ESB alumni.

No, I don't think ESB is a good deal in the sense of being an investment that would be optimal for most MBA applicants. If you went to a top business school you would be earning more. Twice as much if you to Mannheim, and three times more if you attend a top European or US school. So, over a 40 year post-MBA career, that is worth two or three million dollars more, in exchange for a relatively small investment.

ESMT and Mannheim are totally different schools. Again, take a look at LinkedIn and the placement data to compare. Year after year, ESMT is placing more and more of its students into Germany: it's now around 4 in 5. It's a small school and highly entrepreneurial. Mannheim is bigger, more corporate, better located and even safer.

Certification is not a form of IT. This won't refer to people doing software testing.

Look on my profile page for the post about using LinkedIn. mannheim and ESMT are much different schools. I think it's easy to work out that for most students one is much better than the other, depending on your goal.

Hi Duncan.
I am from India and I want to pursue an MBA in US/ Canada region or in the UK/ Ireland region.

I have 4 years of work exp in Oil and Gas engineering.

I want to settle or at least work for minimum 10-15 years in the country where I study my MBA. I will be on complete bank loan and to repay I will require a good job , that too immediately after or even before my graduation.

Please enlighten me about "International mobility" .
My personal preference would be to settle down in US/ Canada or UK.

My options are -

1. Hough , Univ of Florida ( US)
2. Kelly, Indiana university (US )

3. HEC, Montreal ( Canada )
4. UBC, Sauder (Canada )

5. UCD Smurfit ( Ireland )

6. Suggest UK universities. But i cannot spend more than 25,000 GBP on fees. And Britain is not entertaining Indian grads .

Please advise.
Regards.