LBS MiM vs Mannheim MiM vs WHU MiM


Dear friends,

I am a Bachelor of Commerce graduate from Delhi University, India. I am working in Deloitte as a intern from past 4 months. After my masters, I want to work in in-house consulting of a large firm or McKinsey or BCG if I am lucky enough to get a offer.

I am fluent in German ( studied it all my life at school and Goethe Insitut) I have a GMAT of 720 and TOEFL of 107. I have also passed CFA Level 1 (but no relevance to my career plans or is it?)

Now, I have the offers from above three colleges. I am unable to decide. I applied and was accepted to Mannheim last year and deferred the admission to this year on special request because of extenuating circumstances.

LBS has a great brand in India and elsewhere but am scared of the post study visa situation. A few of my friends from LSE masters and Oxford MFE are back in India working at the Big 4!! Not that it is bad but I want to work abroad for a few years for having gone through the effort and investment of studying there..So, UK is scary as PSW visa is not being issued any more and I don't find the point of coming to do masters there apart from quality education.

On the other hand Mannheim and WHU are great regional universities in Germany. Vry few people in India know them. But, German economy is much better and PSW visa is 1.5yrs. Even avg salaries seem to be higher there and cost of living lower than UK.

However, I heard that since Mannheim is a large public uni, there is not much support for international students for placements and since WHU is a small, they offer a more personalised service and also have better connection with the consulting giants. I do not know how far this is true.

Please help me.

Robinhood.

[Edited by robinhooddelhi on Mar 07, 2015]

Dear friends,

I am a Bachelor of Commerce graduate from Delhi University, India. I am working in Deloitte as a intern from past 4 months. After my masters, I want to work in in-house consulting of a large firm or McKinsey or BCG if I am lucky enough to get a offer.

I am fluent in German ( studied it all my life at school and Goethe Insitut) I have a GMAT of 720 and TOEFL of 107. I have also passed CFA Level 1 (but no relevance to my career plans or is it?)

Now, I have the offers from above three colleges. I am unable to decide. I applied and was accepted to Mannheim last year and deferred the admission to this year on special request because of extenuating circumstances.

LBS has a great brand in India and elsewhere but am scared of the post study visa situation. A few of my friends from LSE masters and Oxford MFE are back in India working at the Big 4!! Not that it is bad but I want to work abroad for a few years for having gone through the effort and investment of studying there..So, UK is scary as PSW visa is not being issued any more and I don't find the point of coming to do masters there apart from quality education.

On the other hand Mannheim and WHU are great regional universities in Germany. Vry few people in India know them. But, German economy is much better and PSW visa is 1.5yrs. Even avg salaries seem to be higher there and cost of living lower than UK.

However, I heard that since Mannheim is a large public uni, there is not much support for international students for placements and since WHU is a small, they offer a more personalised service and also have better connection with the consulting giants. I do not know how far this is true.

Please help me.

Robinhood.
quote
Duncan
I would not worry much about the post-study visa for LBS alumni. The most recent LBS MiM class had 97% placement, and it's just not an obstacle. Obviously there are differences between countries, but it's not an issue for top schools like London and Warwick. The pound is very strong right now, and I think earning pounds is much more attractive. The exchange rate will certainly push LBS up, and pull the Euro zone schools down, in the rankings this year and next year.

WHU is a safer choice than Mannheim, certainly.

I think the choice is really whether you'd rather be in London or in western Germany, and whether you think clients in either country might be more open to working with you.
I would not worry much about the post-study visa for LBS alumni. The most recent LBS MiM class had 97% placement, and it's just not an obstacle. Obviously there are differences between countries, but it's not an issue for top schools like London and Warwick. The pound is very strong right now, and I think earning pounds is much more attractive. The exchange rate will certainly push LBS up, and pull the Euro zone schools down, in the rankings this year and next year.

WHU is a safer choice than Mannheim, certainly.

I think the choice is really whether you'd rather be in London or in western Germany, and whether you think clients in either country might be more open to working with you.
quote
I went through the curriculcurriculum at LBS masters as this is not a consecutive degree, the core is general and basic. I have ccovered most in my bachelors. Only value added here are the only two mba level electives.

Talking to alumni and doing LinkedIn research, it seems that MBB recruit more intensively at WHU for analyst positions. They come to LBS for associate recruiting at Mba level. I do not know how far this is true?

And since, German market is more strong fundamentally and is more open than the UK, my father is advising me to go to WHU.

It's very confusing. I do not have any preference to work in London or Frankfurt but I want to have the best possible shot at Mckinsey.

Advise please.
I went through the curriculcurriculum at LBS masters as this is not a consecutive degree, the core is general and basic. I have ccovered most in my bachelors. Only value added here are the only two mba level electives.

Talking to alumni and doing LinkedIn research, it seems that MBB recruit more intensively at WHU for analyst positions. They come to LBS for associate recruiting at Mba level. I do not know how far this is true?

And since, German market is more strong fundamentally and is more open than the UK, my father is advising me to go to WHU.

It's very confusing. I do not have any preference to work in London or Frankfurt but I want to have the best possible shot at Mckinsey.

Advise please.
quote
And what do you mean by in which country clients will be more open to work with me? How can I know that? Though my German is fluent, my accent in not native. All indians have a strong mother tongue influence. Same with English though. I have been through accent neneutralization trainings but marginal difference..
And what do you mean by in which country clients will be more open to work with me? How can I know that? Though my German is fluent, my accent in not native. All indians have a strong mother tongue influence. Same with English though. I have been through accent neneutralization trainings but marginal difference..
quote
Duncan
Well, I guess the question is really about which national culture you feel closer to and where do you think clients will be more open to working with you. I guess that WHU has a bigger MSc than LBS, at least until the London-Fudan global MIM starts, so there could be more positions at WHU. But WHU get a lower score in the FT MiM ranking for international mobility.

If you work on accent reduction and on cultural integration, then I think either school will be great. Certainly the LBS MiM has astonishing placement (I am on the school's alumni council, and got a report on at our meeting on Friday) and I guess that, like WHU, we and other top schools would easily place twice as many students before the demand eased up.

Your argument about the consecutive degree means more to me, however. You will start at a higher level and so will the whole cohort. It's also a quality signal to employers.

PS I am a big fan of Germany, but in any European country the reality is that while the 'business class' and academic layer is very open to international talent, there's a lot of racism.

[Edited by Duncan on Mar 08, 2015]

Well, I guess the question is really about which national culture you feel closer to and where do you think clients will be more open to working with you. I guess that WHU has a bigger MSc than LBS, at least until the London-Fudan global MIM starts, so there could be more positions at WHU. But WHU get a lower score in the FT MiM ranking for international mobility.

If you work on accent reduction and on cultural integration, then I think either school will be great. Certainly the LBS MiM has astonishing placement (I am on the school's alumni council, and got a report on at our meeting on Friday) and I guess that, like WHU, we and other top schools would easily place twice as many students before the demand eased up.

Your argument about the consecutive degree means more to me, however. You will start at a higher level and so will the whole cohort. It's also a quality signal to employers.

PS I am a big fan of Germany, but in any European country the reality is that while the 'business class' and academic layer is very open to international talent, there's a lot of racism.
quote
Is racism also in the UK? I know theres a little racism in Germany but does this apply when it comes to recruiting. So, in reality what would racism imply? Treat me badly etc..or for MBB, given two candidates of almost equal caliber with the Indian one a little more talented, would they still prefer the white?

Technically speaking even an MBA is not a consecutive degree but has astonishing placement too at top schools. So, since LBS is a top school, I must not worry about placements in this regard. Am I right? But, the learning experience and value added in terms of course content will be low?

In the FT rankings WHU, St. Gallen etc rank much higher in terms of careers, placement, aims achieved, average salaries etc. But rankings are not always reliable right?

I have almost made up my mind on LBS but still some doubts persist in my mind as some alumni from business undergraduate backgrounds have told me they found the core portion of the curriculum overlapping with their undergrad. That is a major concern for me though I understand LBS has much value additions to offer in terms of extracurriculars, student groups, career coaching, personality development etc.
Is racism also in the UK? I know theres a little racism in Germany but does this apply when it comes to recruiting. So, in reality what would racism imply? Treat me badly etc..or for MBB, given two candidates of almost equal caliber with the Indian one a little more talented, would they still prefer the white?

Technically speaking even an MBA is not a consecutive degree but has astonishing placement too at top schools. So, since LBS is a top school, I must not worry about placements in this regard. Am I right? But, the learning experience and value added in terms of course content will be low?

In the FT rankings WHU, St. Gallen etc rank much higher in terms of careers, placement, aims achieved, average salaries etc. But rankings are not always reliable right?

I have almost made up my mind on LBS but still some doubts persist in my mind as some alumni from business undergraduate backgrounds have told me they found the core portion of the curriculum overlapping with their undergrad. That is a major concern for me though I understand LBS has much value additions to offer in terms of extracurriculars, student groups, career coaching, personality development etc.
quote
Duncan
I think racism is a fairly global thing, which is especially strong in areas of homogeneity. Indeed, I think that racism is not the only thing which would act against Indians, but also the relative lack of cultural context and local knowledge. I think that's especially important when working with the Mittelstand.

Perhaps it could be an advantage to employers that WHU is a consecutive degree, but also that fits the national culture in which people don't move as much, in terms of career or geography, as in the other larger European countries, including France or Britain, which are more centralised. I think the learning at LBS will be huge in terms of the great diversity, the wider range of assets on campus (WHU is not only smaller, but the MBA programmes are on the micro-campus) is meaningful and the London experience is powerful. But, indeed, at LBS there will be a mix of people with or without business degrees (which perhaps means that you might contribute more than you might expect to your study group), but at WHU the overwhelming dominance of those raised in the German-speaking region means that there is one assimilating national culture. That is not the case with LBS.

I think the rankings are as accurate as they possibly can be.

Considering your goal, I would really recommend WHU. It offers a specialised strategy concentration, a long internship and an international exchange option, which could allow you to get more European context (France is the obvious choice, since it's Germany's main trading partner, and WHU has exchange programmes with almost all of the top 20 grande ecole, including four of the top five and Sciences Po).

The challenge for you is to really fall in love with Germany. I think it's a country that Indians find easy to love, especially in the west. But you have to really show that you are not just learning the language, but losing your accent, picking up the culture and dressing German... if you can't do that, then that is the big reason to go to LBS.
I think racism is a fairly global thing, which is especially strong in areas of homogeneity. Indeed, I think that racism is not the only thing which would act against Indians, but also the relative lack of cultural context and local knowledge. I think that's especially important when working with the Mittelstand.

Perhaps it could be an advantage to employers that WHU is a consecutive degree, but also that fits the national culture in which people don't move as much, in terms of career or geography, as in the other larger European countries, including France or Britain, which are more centralised. I think the learning at LBS will be huge in terms of the great diversity, the wider range of assets on campus (WHU is not only smaller, but the MBA programmes are on the micro-campus) is meaningful and the London experience is powerful. But, indeed, at LBS there will be a mix of people with or without business degrees (which perhaps means that you might contribute more than you might expect to your study group), but at WHU the overwhelming dominance of those raised in the German-speaking region means that there is one assimilating national culture. That is not the case with LBS.

I think the rankings are as accurate as they possibly can be.

Considering your goal, I would really recommend WHU. It offers a specialised strategy concentration, a long internship and an international exchange option, which could allow you to get more European context (France is the obvious choice, since it's Germany's main trading partner, and WHU has exchange programmes with almost all of the top 20 grande ecole, including four of the top five and Sciences Po).

The challenge for you is to really fall in love with Germany. I think it's a country that Indians find easy to love, especially in the west. But you have to really show that you are not just learning the language, but losing your accent, picking up the culture and dressing German... if you can't do that, then that is the big reason to go to LBS.
quote
Duncan
PS I would be concerned if you were NOT concerned about this choice. These are two very strong choices and, to be honest, you cannot go wrong with them. But, looking again at the LBS programme, with 10 core courses and just two electives, I think it's just silly to go to LBS for the MSc. Go there for the Sloan Fellows programme after 10 or 15 years instead.
PS I would be concerned if you were NOT concerned about this choice. These are two very strong choices and, to be honest, you cannot go wrong with them. But, looking again at the LBS programme, with 10 core courses and just two electives, I think it's just silly to go to LBS for the MSc. Go there for the Sloan Fellows programme after 10 or 15 years instead.
quote
Hi Duncan. Thanks a lot for your help.

In fact, we did not consider one thing: That high placement of 97% accounts for Indian and Chinese students finding jobs in their home countries as LBS networks and Career centre helps students do the same. I know this is not involuntary but most people take the path of least resistance.

BTW, In case I choose WHU, I was actually considering an exchange with Columbia business school or Kellogg. They have many interesting consulting electives taught by actual engagement managers and senior partners at MBB. One final question: Is it possible for someone to go to any of the 120 partner schools every year or is it reciprocal?? I mean can I go to columbia only if someone from columbia wants to come to WHU?

WHU Pros:
1.depth and range of electives offered by WHU(in fact all 11 req courses are electives)
2. Strong German Economy
3. Strategy concentration
4. Good name in the German speaking world.
5. Performs well in Linkedin research w.r.t MBB associates
6. Possibility of exchange with top US schools like Columbia and Kellogg
7. More consulting and in-house consulting companies come to recruit. Even possible to do operational consulting at a PE firm like KKR, as they visit the campus for analyst recruiting.

WHU Cons
1. No international brand. Almost no one in India or US heard of it.
2. Very small campus in a village.

LBS Pros
1. Global Brand. Ranked FT 2009 2010 as the No.1 B-School in the world.
2. Top Faculty
3.Intercultutal Immersion with people of widely different backgrounds
4. Excellent placement support and a good possibility of obtaining a job in London (97% placement)

LBS Cons
1. Many LSE and Oxbridge alum have warned me not to get my hopes high about getting a job in London.
2. Covered 60% of core curriculum in my Bachelors. Only 2 great electives.
3. In case, I do not get a job in 3 months, I will be with a debt and will have to go back to India.

Please add if I am missing something, I am still not able to let go of the LBS brand. Wish they had a consecutive MiM with all electives where students can choose freely between MBA and Sloan electives !!
Hi Duncan. Thanks a lot for your help.

In fact, we did not consider one thing: That high placement of 97% accounts for Indian and Chinese students finding jobs in their home countries as LBS networks and Career centre helps students do the same. I know this is not involuntary but most people take the path of least resistance.

BTW, In case I choose WHU, I was actually considering an exchange with Columbia business school or Kellogg. They have many interesting consulting electives taught by actual engagement managers and senior partners at MBB. One final question: Is it possible for someone to go to any of the 120 partner schools every year or is it reciprocal?? I mean can I go to columbia only if someone from columbia wants to come to WHU?

WHU Pros:
1.depth and range of electives offered by WHU(in fact all 11 req courses are electives)
2. Strong German Economy
3. Strategy concentration
4. Good name in the German speaking world.
5. Performs well in Linkedin research w.r.t MBB associates
6. Possibility of exchange with top US schools like Columbia and Kellogg
7. More consulting and in-house consulting companies come to recruit. Even possible to do operational consulting at a PE firm like KKR, as they visit the campus for analyst recruiting.

WHU Cons
1. No international brand. Almost no one in India or US heard of it.
2. Very small campus in a village.

LBS Pros
1. Global Brand. Ranked FT 2009 2010 as the No.1 B-School in the world.
2. Top Faculty
3.Intercultutal Immersion with people of widely different backgrounds
4. Excellent placement support and a good possibility of obtaining a job in London (97% placement)

LBS Cons
1. Many LSE and Oxbridge alum have warned me not to get my hopes high about getting a job in London.
2. Covered 60% of core curriculum in my Bachelors. Only 2 great electives.
3. In case, I do not get a job in 3 months, I will be with a debt and will have to go back to India.

Please add if I am missing something, I am still not able to let go of the LBS brand. Wish they had a consecutive MiM with all electives where students can choose freely between MBA and Sloan electives !!
quote
Duncan
Yes, I think you have a good outline of the issues. One option will be to link, on your resume, both your home school and your exchange school. For example, you can say that you studied for your MSc at Columbia and WHU, which sounds very good.

That said, the allocation of exchange places will be both reciprocal and competitive. I imagine that the number of seats will be limited to the number of people who came from Columbia this year. And those will be awarded competitively to WHU students, probably based on their GMAT scores and performance in the courses. Just as a comparison, an able friend of mine is studying at Manchester and applied for his MBA exchange with three well-known European schools. He got places at none of them.

To take a whole year in London for two five-day day long electives just sounds a bit odd to me.

[Edited by Duncan on Mar 09, 2015]

Yes, I think you have a good outline of the issues. One option will be to link, on your resume, both your home school and your exchange school. For example, you can say that you studied for your MSc at Columbia and WHU, which sounds very good.

That said, the allocation of exchange places will be both reciprocal and competitive. I imagine that the number of seats will be limited to the number of people who came from Columbia this year. And those will be awarded competitively to WHU students, probably based on their GMAT scores and performance in the courses. Just as a comparison, an able friend of mine is studying at Manchester and applied for his MBA exchange with three well-known European schools. He got places at none of them.

To take a whole year in London for two five-day day long electives just sounds a bit odd to me.
quote
Does that mean if no body from Columbia wants to come to WHU for a exchange, I cannot apply to do a Columbia exchange? I guess theres a very small chance of some MBA student at CBS wanting to do a exchange with a remote unknown school like WHU when he/she has so many top-tier options. Recently, I see many WHU students going to exchange at the schools of the likes of McCombs Texas and Ohio State university. I am concerned that I will not be able to do the exchange at Kellogg or Columbia just because I cannot apply?

What do you think of the Keio Business school in Japan. Its ranked number 4 in the world for number of Fortune 500 CEOs. Theres a double degree and exchange option with WHU with this school?
Does that mean if no body from Columbia wants to come to WHU for a exchange, I cannot apply to do a Columbia exchange? I guess theres a very small chance of some MBA student at CBS wanting to do a exchange with a remote unknown school like WHU when he/she has so many top-tier options. Recently, I see many WHU students going to exchange at the schools of the likes of McCombs Texas and Ohio State university. I am concerned that I will not be able to do the exchange at Kellogg or Columbia just because I cannot apply?

What do you think of the Keio Business school in Japan. Its ranked number 4 in the world for number of Fortune 500 CEOs. Theres a double degree and exchange option with WHU with this school?
quote
Duncan
Keio is one of the top universities in the world. It would be a great experience.

Exchanges don't work on a one to one basis, but the numbers of students going in and out have to balance up in the short term. if they did not, then the top schools should have more exchange students than their own students, and there would be few people left to teach at the lesser schools. In the case of WHU, and German schools more broadly, it's mostly students from Germany's major trading partners who want to do there. many more peopole are interested in top-tier schools, schools in great universities, schools in English-speaking countries, and in world cities with lost of MBA jobs. Columbia is in all of those categories, and it will have many more students who want to stay there than leave, and many more students who want to transfer in than exchange out. As a result, exchange students at the Ivy League schools might be higher quality than the home students. if you can't get into CBS as an admit, then perhaps you cannot get in as an exchange student.
Keio is one of the top universities in the world. It would be a great experience.

Exchanges don't work on a one to one basis, but the numbers of students going in and out have to balance up in the short term. if they did not, then the top schools should have more exchange students than their own students, and there would be few people left to teach at the lesser schools. In the case of WHU, and German schools more broadly, it's mostly students from Germany's major trading partners who want to do there. many more peopole are interested in top-tier schools, schools in great universities, schools in English-speaking countries, and in world cities with lost of MBA jobs. Columbia is in all of those categories, and it will have many more students who want to stay there than leave, and many more students who want to transfer in than exchange out. As a result, exchange students at the Ivy League schools might be higher quality than the home students. if you can't get into CBS as an admit, then perhaps you cannot get in as an exchange student.
quote

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