Dilemma: MBA in Germany


Dan85

In my opinion, German is necessary in 99% of the companies here. In fact, Allianz is the only DAX-company in Germany that officially hires employees that don't have any German language skills. Which other companies have English officially (and practically!) as their internal language?

Having said that, you might be able to get jobs with very basic German skills though, but most likely only in specific IT or backoffice functions.

My advise would be get as good in German as possible so that you can (at least) survive the job interview phase (no German skills would most likely disqualify you for most management roles). Once you're hired, most people are OK talking English to you.

In my opinion, German is necessary in 99% of the companies here. In fact, Allianz is the only DAX-company in Germany that officially hires employees that don't have any German language skills. Which other companies have English officially (and practically!) as their internal language?

Having said that, you might be able to get jobs with very basic German skills though, but most likely only in specific IT or backoffice functions.

My advise would be get as good in German as possible so that you can (at least) survive the job interview phase (no German skills would most likely disqualify you for most management roles). Once you're hired, most people are OK talking English to you.
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Elisa

You are right Laurie! As far as I know IGC offers a dual-degree master programm through UNCW that holds the accreditation of AACSB.

[Edited by Elisa on Jun 16, 2016]

You are right Laurie! As far as I know IGC offers a dual-degree master programm through UNCW that holds the accreditation of AACSB.
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Eleni

Plus (from my perspective as a German), MBA as a degree is not held in particularly high regard among employers in Germany unless obtained from a high-profile school.

Traditionally and typically, people hold MSc or equivalent degrees here.


I dissagree! It depends in which field you want to work. If you want to get into a Management posistion an MBA degree is much better than an MSc.

[quote]Plus (from my perspective as a German), MBA as a degree is not held in particularly high regard among employers in Germany unless obtained from a high-profile school.

Traditionally and typically, people hold MSc or equivalent degrees here.[/quote]

I dissagree! It depends in which field you want to work. If you want to get into a Management posistion an MBA degree is much better than an MSc.
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Dan85

Plus (from my perspective as a German), MBA as a degree is not held in particularly high regard among employers in Germany unless obtained from a high-profile school.

Traditionally and typically, people hold MSc or equivalent degrees here.


I dissagree! It depends in which field you want to work. If you want to get into a Management posistion an MBA degree is much better than an MSc.


Just out of the top of my head: There is only one DAX-CEO who has an MBA (from Stern). All other 29 don't. Or which management positions do you mean?

Edit: Germany in particular is very much about PhD, but that is a different story..

[Edited by Dan85 on Jun 16, 2016]

[quote][quote]Plus (from my perspective as a German), MBA as a degree is not held in particularly high regard among employers in Germany unless obtained from a high-profile school.

Traditionally and typically, people hold MSc or equivalent degrees here.[/quote]

I dissagree! It depends in which field you want to work. If you want to get into a Management posistion an MBA degree is much better than an MSc.[/quote]

Just out of the top of my head: There is only one DAX-CEO who has an MBA (from Stern). All other 29 don't. Or which management positions do you mean?

Edit: Germany in particular is very much about PhD, but that is a different story..
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Duncan

If only there were alternative management jobs to DAX-CEO positions.

:-/

If only there were alternative management jobs to DAX-CEO positions.

:-/
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Dan85

Is the prevalence of MBAs higher in these alternative management jobs? If yes, where?

Germany simply has no MBA-tradition which is why the recognition of that degree is limited to top schools. Any graduate of a no-name MBA school in Germany will have a hard time to convince an employer why it is better to hire someone with a largely unknown degree rather than someone with a degree of long tradition.

If you have an MBA with a big name on your CV (and I mean the really big names..), it works just fine. If you don't, people might question your qualification. In that case, I would strongly advice to do a MSc. from a well-recognized German university. Plus, it's cheaper ;-)

Is the prevalence of MBAs higher in these alternative management jobs? If yes, where?

Germany simply has no MBA-tradition which is why the recognition of that degree is limited to top schools. Any graduate of a no-name MBA school in Germany will have a hard time to convince an employer why it is better to hire someone with a largely unknown degree rather than someone with a degree of long tradition.

If you have an MBA with a big name on your CV (and I mean the really big names..), it works just fine. If you don't, people might question your qualification. In that case, I would strongly advice to do a MSc. from a well-recognized German university. Plus, it's cheaper ;-)
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Duncan

Hi Dan. I think the same advice is true even for countries with mature MBA markets: in Australia, the UK or USA a master of science from a great school is better than an MBA from an average school.

That said, when we do look at the top schools we see that students at ESMT or HSG do similarly to students from AGSM; students from Mannheim do similarly to students from UCD; and so on.

So, think we agree that the MSc is a strong option in Germany, but a top MBA is just as powerful an asset (although a rarer one) there as in similar markets. That's a big step forward from 30 years ago, when top German schools did not have MBAs. In 30 years, those schools will have moved even further forward into the mainstream.

[Edited by Duncan on Jun 17, 2016]

Hi Dan. I think the same advice is true even for countries with mature MBA markets: in Australia, the UK or USA a master of science from a great school is better than an MBA from an average school.

That said, when we do look at the top schools we see that students at ESMT or HSG do similarly to students from AGSM; students from Mannheim do similarly to students from UCD; and so on.

So, think we agree that the MSc is a strong option in Germany, but a top MBA is just as powerful an asset (although a rarer one) there as in similar markets. That's a big step forward from 30 years ago, when top German schools did not have MBAs. In 30 years, those schools will have moved even further forward into the mainstream.
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Elisa

I agree to Duncan that a good MBA is a very valuable degree in Germany.
And furthermore I would like to add that I agree with Eleni as well. With a MBA degree you are able to get very good managing positions.
Even though it might be right that only one of the DAX-CEOs has an MBA degree, you should consider that there are a lot more very good jobs in the management of German companies.

I agree to Duncan that a good MBA is a very valuable degree in Germany.
And furthermore I would like to add that I agree with Eleni as well. With a MBA degree you are able to get very good managing positions.
Even though it might be right that only one of the DAX-CEOs has an MBA degree, you should consider that there are a lot more very good jobs in the management of German companies.
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Duncan

I woud also add that the future is not like the past, and the paths for foreigners into German firms are not like the paths for German. Anshu Jain is an exceptional person: he spoke at my LBS graduation just before he became CEO at Deutsche Bank. He has an MBA from a top US school. Current CEOs at DAX firms were educated a generation ago: the MBA wasn't a visible option for them. But for the people now entering the workforce, it certainly is.

I woud also add that the future is not like the past, and the paths for foreigners into German firms are not like the paths for German. Anshu Jain is an exceptional person: he spoke at my LBS graduation just before he became CEO at Deutsche Bank. He has an MBA from a top US school. Current CEOs at DAX firms were educated a generation ago: the MBA wasn't a visible option for them. But for the people now entering the workforce, it certainly is.
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RobPM

Hi guys, I am planning to follow the MBA at HHL in 2017. I am a Chilean mechanical engineer with a MSc in project management from the University of Manchester and 6 years of experience in mining and water supply projects as a project controls (I am a German passport holder since my grandfather was German). My goal is to work and have international experience in Germany, and of course to change into general management roles.

So my options are:

1. Follow the MBA in September 2017 and get the all German language I can at that time (I will arrive with a A2 in German) and then look for a job.

2. Just go to study German in Germany in March 2017 to get a C1 or C2 level and look for a job (and save the rest of the money I would need or a loan) and plan from there to follow the MBA.

Which one would be more effective to find a job in Germany?.
Thanks in advance for any advice, best regards.

Hi guys, I am planning to follow the MBA at HHL in 2017. I am a Chilean mechanical engineer with a MSc in project management from the University of Manchester and 6 years of experience in mining and water supply projects as a project controls (I am a German passport holder since my grandfather was German). My goal is to work and have international experience in Germany, and of course to change into general management roles.

So my options are:

1. Follow the MBA in September 2017 and get the all German language I can at that time (I will arrive with a A2 in German) and then look for a job.

2. Just go to study German in Germany in March 2017 to get a C1 or C2 level and look for a job (and save the rest of the money I would need or a loan) and plan from there to follow the MBA.

Which one would be more effective to find a job in Germany?.
Thanks in advance for any advice, best regards.
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Duncan

Third option: go to Germany in March 2017 to [a] get C1 or C2 level German while also taking a part-time MBA. That would give you strong career support and a better peer group while also allowing you to get better work options.

Third option: go to Germany in March 2017 to [a] get C1 or C2 level German while also [b] taking a part-time MBA. That would give you strong career support and a better peer group while also allowing you to get better work options.
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RobPM

Thank you Duncan. But, Can I follow a part time MBA if I am not working at the same time?.

Thank you Duncan. But, Can I follow a part time MBA if I am not working at the same time?.
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Dan85

I agree to Duncan that a good MBA is a very valuable degree in Germany.
And furthermore I would like to add that I agree with Eleni as well. With a MBA degree you are able to get very good managing positions.
Even though it might be right that only one of the DAX-CEOs has an MBA degree, you should consider that there are a lot more very good jobs in the management of German companies.


I don't mean to be annoying, but what do you base the assumption on that exactly these very good jobs in the management of German companies are held by MBAs?

I have been working in Germany for the last six years, 4.5 of which in management consulting in a Big4 and 1.5 in a DAX-30 company. I have met exactly one MBA on my way - the CEO of my current unit, a Harvard MBA.

Of course I do know MBAs on a personal level, but they are neither in 'good management position' nor are they the majority in desirable positions.

So - is there any data that prove your point?

Just to be clear: I also consider doing an MBA. But everyone who is thinking about working in Germany with an MBA should be aware that the perception of an MBA here is very different from what it is in, let's say, the US.

[Edited by Dan85 on Jun 21, 2016]

[quote]I agree to Duncan that a good MBA is a very valuable degree in Germany.
And furthermore I would like to add that I agree with Eleni as well. With a MBA degree you are able to get very good managing positions.
Even though it might be right that only one of the DAX-CEOs has an MBA degree, you should consider that there are a lot more very good jobs in the management of German companies.[/quote]

I don't mean to be annoying, but what do you base the assumption on that exactly these very good jobs in the management of German companies are held by MBAs?

I have been working in Germany for the last six years, 4.5 of which in management consulting in a Big4 and 1.5 in a DAX-30 company. I have met exactly one MBA on my way - the CEO of my current unit, a Harvard MBA.

Of course I do know MBAs on a personal level, but they are neither in 'good management position' nor are they the majority in desirable positions.

So - is there any data that prove your point?

Just to be clear: I also consider doing an MBA. But everyone who is thinking about working in Germany with an MBA should be aware that the perception of an MBA here is very different from what it is in, let's say, the US.
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Duncan

Rob: it's unusual but many part-time MBAs will admit people who are looking for work. Of course they will want to know how you will pay.

Dan: The rankings show the salary increases and career progress from the top German schools: they are similar to those of comparable schools in other countries. That doesn't suggest that good management jobs are all held by MBAs (no-one would make that assertion, even in the USA) but rather than MBAs make much faster career progress and earn higher salaries.

If you want to have an argument with someone who says that only MBAs can succeed in Germany, well let me know if you can find such a person. Let's not waste time with straw dolls.

If you want to see good jobs held by MBAs in German, just search in LinkedIn. I see that the CEOs of Audi AG, Herrmann and Detecon have MBAs, for example.

Rob: it's unusual but many part-time MBAs will admit people who are looking for work. Of course they will want to know how you will pay.

Dan: The rankings show the salary increases and career progress from the top German schools: they are similar to those of comparable schools in other countries. That doesn't suggest that good management jobs are all held by MBAs (no-one would make that assertion, even in the USA) but rather than MBAs make much faster career progress and earn higher salaries.

If you want to have an argument with someone who says that only MBAs can succeed in Germany, well let me know if you can find such a person. Let's not waste time with straw dolls.

If you want to see good jobs held by MBAs in German, just search in LinkedIn. I see that the CEOs of Audi AG, Herrmann and Detecon have MBAs, for example.
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Dan85

Rubert Stadler (CEO Audi) does not have an MBA - he even says, he didn't need one anymore after he had enough international exposure. In fact, he doesn't even have a university degree, just one from an FH.

http://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/management/rupert-stadler-wer-menschen-mitreissen-kann-der-hat-eine-superchance-seite-3/2900038-3.html

If I take ESMT and look at their most recent MBA employment report, I see a median base salary of 70k EUR. Frankly, that is what most people make anyways if they work in an appropriate position in one of the companies that sponsor ESMT. If people have career progress after ESMT, then because they (must) come from a pretty low level.

Once again, I don't deny that MBAs can work in Germany. But only MBAs that have a high brand recognition - Detecon's CEO is from HBS which kind of proves that point.

Rubert Stadler (CEO Audi) does not have an MBA - he even says, he didn't need one anymore after he had enough international exposure. In fact, he doesn't even have a university degree, just one from an FH.

http://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/management/rupert-stadler-wer-menschen-mitreissen-kann-der-hat-eine-superchance-seite-3/2900038-3.html

If I take ESMT and look at their most recent MBA employment report, I see a median base salary of 70k EUR. Frankly, that is what most people make anyways if they work in an appropriate position in one of the companies that sponsor ESMT. If people have career progress after ESMT, then because they (must) come from a pretty low level.

Once again, I don't deny that MBAs can work in Germany. But only MBAs that have a high brand recognition - Detecon's CEO is from HBS which kind of proves that point.
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Duncan

Stadler is the chair of the Vorstand, not one of the AGs CEOs.

According to the FT ranking, ESMT alumni earn an average of $107,234 three years after graduating: an increase of 62% on their pre-MBA salary. That suggests a pre-MBA salary of $66k. If you think these are low wages, that's up to you: they are in line with similar schools in other countries. If applicants are already earning $107k, they don't take the full-time MBA at ESMT. For the others, it seems to be a good investment, doesn't it?

PS ESMT is not HBS but you don't need to go to HBS to get an uplift from an MBA. Across the top 100 business schools, not only at Harvard, it's common to increase salaries by 60%, 80%, 100% or even more in the three years after the MBA.

[Edited by Duncan on Jun 21, 2016]

Stadler is the chair of the Vorstand, not one of the AGs CEOs.

According to the FT ranking, ESMT alumni earn an average of $107,234 three years after graduating: an increase of 62% on their pre-MBA salary. That suggests a pre-MBA salary of $66k. If you think these are low wages, that's up to you: they are in line with similar schools in other countries. If applicants are already earning $107k, they don't take the full-time MBA at ESMT. For the others, it seems to be a good investment, doesn't it?

PS ESMT is not HBS but you don't need to go to HBS to get an uplift from an MBA. Across the top 100 business schools, not only at Harvard, it's common to increase salaries by 60%, 80%, 100% or even more in the three years after the MBA.
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Dan85

Stadler has the operative control over Audi - as such, he is the CEO. Or who else would be Audi's CEO?

In terms of the FT ranking, I am hesitant to trust the numbers for two reasons:

First, I think it is reasonable to assume that alumni with higher salaries are more likely to respond to the (voluntary) survey than those who command lower salaries. That inflates the figures and certainly justifies a discount. Does FT (and Forbes) publish the response rate of alumni they asked? I would be very interested to see that number, also for my own MBA consideration process.

Second, the gap between the 1y-out salary reported by schools and the 3y-out salary by FT is incredibily huge. As for ESMT, it is 70k EUR (first year, reported by the school) vs. ~94k EUR (3 years, reported by FT). Thus, on average, alumni would get salary increases of ~16% each year. The gap is even bigger when we look at top schools. I find that hard to believe.

Stadler has the operative control over Audi - as such, he is the CEO. Or who else would be Audi's CEO?

In terms of the FT ranking, I am hesitant to trust the numbers for two reasons:

First, I think it is reasonable to assume that alumni with higher salaries are more likely to respond to the (voluntary) survey than those who command lower salaries. That inflates the figures and certainly justifies a discount. Does FT (and Forbes) publish the response rate of alumni they asked? I would be very interested to see that number, also for my own MBA consideration process.

Second, the gap between the 1y-out salary reported by schools and the 3y-out salary by FT is incredibily huge. As for ESMT, it is 70k EUR (first year, reported by the school) vs. ~94k EUR (3 years, reported by FT). Thus, on average, alumni would get salary increases of ~16% each year. The gap is even bigger when we look at top schools. I find that hard to believe.
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Duncan

The FT survey gives the percentage responding from each school. Sorry if you find it hard to believe, but the data are audited by KPMG.

The FT survey gives the percentage responding from each school. Sorry if you find it hard to believe, but the data are audited by KPMG.
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Dan85

The response rate of the entire FT ranking (I couldn't find school specific response rates, though) is 43%. These 43% were subject to the KPMG review. Therefore, the remeaning 57% did not provide any information, were obvisously not audited and might (!) have shied away from reporting their presumably lower salary.

On the other hand, we have school provided information with a way higher response rate (usually >80%).

Which ones should we trust if we have such a huge gap between both figures? Certainly not both, especially because that gap is sometimes even wider than at ESMT.

[Edited by Dan85 on Jun 22, 2016]

The response rate of the entire FT ranking (I couldn't find school specific response rates, though) is 43%. These 43% were subject to the KPMG review. Therefore, the remeaning 57% did not provide any information, were obvisously not audited and might (!) have shied away from reporting their presumably lower salary.

On the other hand, we have school provided information with a way higher response rate (usually >80%).

Which ones should we trust if we have such a huge gap between both figures? Certainly not both, especially because that gap is sometimes even wider than at ESMT.
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Duncan

I'm sorry, but there is clearly no data that will convince you. There's nothing about the ESMT data that is greatly out of line with the data from similar schools in other countries. You obvious don't feel there are any reliable data. I don't see how I can help you.

I'm sorry, but there is clearly no data that will convince you. There's nothing about the ESMT data that is greatly out of line with the data from similar schools in other countries. You obvious don't feel there are any reliable data. I don't see how I can help you.
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