MBA - wheeereee ?


busy486

Hy all,

this seems like a good forum, and I am just wondering - maybe you can help me.
I don´t know whether to apply for a masters in Europe or U.S. - what is the difference? cause they all say we´re so special and so on.. and I just don´t know what is the difference. I have studied at a moderate good university in Europe...but I can´t say the difference betwenn my school and an Ivy league one.
So... what should I be looking for? is it just the name, or something else as well?
thx everybody:)

Hy all,

this seems like a good forum, and I am just wondering - maybe you can help me.
I don´t know whether to apply for a masters in Europe or U.S. - what is the difference? cause they all say we´re so special and so on.. and I just don´t know what is the difference. I have studied at a moderate good university in Europe...but I can´t say the difference betwenn my school and an Ivy league one.
So... what should I be looking for? is it just the name, or something else as well?
thx everybody:)
quote
LP

Hi Busy,

The question you are asking is very ambitious. There's a lot of information in this board, since others have already asked similar things. I suggest you go through the board and read what's already been written.

I think there are two main differences between European and US programs. First, most US programs are 2-year programs. There are also a few one-year programs, but they are not the standard. This means that the US programs allow you to learn more, but they are also much more expensive than European ones. Second, US programs are stronger from an academic point of view, in the sense that professors are asked to be very competitive in research. In Europe you do find schools where research is important, but most big programs place much less emphasis on research than US schools.

This is not an exhaustive list, but suggests what things you should be looking at:

1) Accreditation. There are three well-reputed accrediting bodies: AACSB, Association of MBAs (AMBA), and EFMD (which gives the EQUIS accreditation).

2) Placement in rankings, such as Financial Times or Business Week.

3) Courses that are offered. Check which subjects are offered and see whether they match your interests.

4) Quality of faculty. What percentage of them has a PhD degree? Where did they get them from?

5) How well-known in the school? Will the school name draw employers' attention?

6) Price and cost of living. How much have you saved, how much can you borrow? Try to check how much your salary would have to increase after the MBA to make your expenses worthwhile. Check if that pay increase would be realistic for you.

7) If possible, visit the schools that you are most interested in, talk to their current students or to alumni.

Hi Busy,

The question you are asking is very ambitious. There's a lot of information in this board, since others have already asked similar things. I suggest you go through the board and read what's already been written.

I think there are two main differences between European and US programs. First, most US programs are 2-year programs. There are also a few one-year programs, but they are not the standard. This means that the US programs allow you to learn more, but they are also much more expensive than European ones. Second, US programs are stronger from an academic point of view, in the sense that professors are asked to be very competitive in research. In Europe you do find schools where research is important, but most big programs place much less emphasis on research than US schools.

This is not an exhaustive list, but suggests what things you should be looking at:

1) Accreditation. There are three well-reputed accrediting bodies: AACSB, Association of MBAs (AMBA), and EFMD (which gives the EQUIS accreditation).

2) Placement in rankings, such as Financial Times or Business Week.

3) Courses that are offered. Check which subjects are offered and see whether they match your interests.

4) Quality of faculty. What percentage of them has a PhD degree? Where did they get them from?

5) How well-known in the school? Will the school name draw employers' attention?

6) Price and cost of living. How much have you saved, how much can you borrow? Try to check how much your salary would have to increase after the MBA to make your expenses worthwhile. Check if that pay increase would be realistic for you.

7) If possible, visit the schools that you are most interested in, talk to their current students or to alumni.

quote
FMartin

Three more big differences between US and European Schools that jaitego forgot to mention.
First, European Business School are quite more international than US Business Schools, as Europe is most international than US.
Second, the average of students for MBAs in European Business School is considerably higher than US Business Schools, as European Bs School (in general) ask for at least 3 years of work experience and in the US it is not a requisite. This point is particulary important since you will learn more of classmates with international work experience than from just graduated.
Third: Despite of the aforementioned, it is clear that US Business School enjoy of more reputation than European Business School. Just look at the rankings and you will see that in the top 10 or top 20. It is not the same to say I studied in Harvard, Stanford or Yale (even regarding Yale is not in the top 10) than in IESE or INSEAD, no mattter which MBA is better.

So, the most important here is to define how much would you like to invest in both time and money.
Another important thing to think over is to weigh up your chances of getting into the top 20 US MBAs. Otherwise, if you feel you won't get in the top 20 US MBAs, then I suggest you to look just in the European MBAs.

Good luck !

Three more big differences between US and European Schools that jaitego forgot to mention.
First, European Business School are quite more international than US Business Schools, as Europe is most international than US.
Second, the average of students for MBAs in European Business School is considerably higher than US Business Schools, as European Bs School (in general) ask for at least 3 years of work experience and in the US it is not a requisite. This point is particulary important since you will learn more of classmates with international work experience than from just graduated.
Third: Despite of the aforementioned, it is clear that US Business School enjoy of more reputation than European Business School. Just look at the rankings and you will see that in the top 10 or top 20. It is not the same to say I studied in Harvard, Stanford or Yale (even regarding Yale is not in the top 10) than in IESE or INSEAD, no mattter which MBA is better.

So, the most important here is to define how much would you like to invest in both time and money.
Another important thing to think over is to weigh up your chances of getting into the top 20 US MBAs. Otherwise, if you feel you won't get in the top 20 US MBAs, then I suggest you to look just in the European MBAs.

Good luck !
quote
busy486

Woaw - guys - you are amasing - thx for the reply.

Are you done with your MBA or how come you know so much?
and if so - you did it in Europe or the US ?

I was thinking the same with regard to the reputation of the university -one of my friends really wanted to go to HEC- Paris, and she told me they have a pretty good program. but, I have never heard of HEC before she told me. and I think that most ppl aply in the US for the reputation of the schools. You seem very much into the subject.. so ... do you feel that In the next 10 year MBAs in Europe will be perceived as better than the ones in the USA?
thank you :)

Woaw - guys - you are amasing - thx for the reply.

Are you done with your MBA or how come you know so much?
and if so - you did it in Europe or the US ?

I was thinking the same with regard to the reputation of the university -one of my friends really wanted to go to HEC- Paris, and she told me they have a pretty good program. but, I have never heard of HEC before she told me. and I think that most ppl aply in the US for the reputation of the schools. You seem very much into the subject.. so ... do you feel that In the next 10 year MBAs in Europe will be perceived as better than the ones in the USA?
thank you :)




quote
LP

FMartin, I don't think your statement about work experience is correct. Business schools in the US do ask for work experience. You can't get into a decent program in the US without work experience. Why do you say work experience is not necessary in the US? I find it hard to believe.

FMartin, I don't think your statement about work experience is correct. Business schools in the US do ask for work experience. You can't get into a decent program in the US without work experience. Why do you say work experience is not necessary in the US? I find it hard to believe.
quote
FMartin

Actually, I completed last year my MBA in Chicago USB. I am very satisfied with the whole experience (program, job prospect, extensive network, rigorous and challenging environment, etc) and my current job. However, I must admit that I was a little disappointed with the average age and work experience (and international exposure) of some of my cohorts. Later I found out that US Business Schools (none of them) require work experience for their MBAs.
The most important criteria in US Bs Schools is the intellectual capacity (GPA and above all, GMAT). In their race to attract the most brilliant candidates, they are (unfortunately) playing the work experience down.
I can assure that if you hold a very good GPA and GMAT, then work experience won?t be an obstacle to get into a top ten US Business School.

Actually, I completed last year my MBA in Chicago USB. I am very satisfied with the whole experience (program, job prospect, extensive network, rigorous and challenging environment, etc) and my current job. However, I must admit that I was a little disappointed with the average age and work experience (and international exposure) of some of my cohorts. Later I found out that US Business Schools (none of them) require work experience for their MBAs.
The most important criteria in US Bs Schools is the intellectual capacity (GPA and above all, GMAT). In their race to attract the most brilliant candidates, they are (unfortunately) playing the work experience down.
I can assure that if you hold a very good GPA and GMAT, then work experience won?t be an obstacle to get into a top ten US Business School.
quote
masterXX

Hello FMartin,
You have your personal experience in Chicago USB as basis of your judgment, that's fine. But I would like to add some nuances.

Formally speaking there is no minimum work experience required for many of the top MBAs in the US (I don't know if this is valid for all MBAs), but most of them clearly look for candidates who have already been working.
This is reflected in the stats, at the MBA in Columbia for instance the average of work experience is 5 years, in Stern 4.9 years, 4.5 in Harvard.

So I am not surprised that the "international exposure" of the students was not so good in your MBA. But in top level US MBA programs the lack of work experience must be, generally speaking, more an exception.

Hello FMartin,
You have your personal experience in Chicago USB as basis of your judgment, that's fine. But I would like to add some nuances.

Formally speaking there is no minimum work experience required for many of the top MBAs in the US (I don't know if this is valid for all MBAs), but most of them clearly look for candidates who have already been working.
This is reflected in the stats, at the MBA in Columbia for instance the average of work experience is 5 years, in Stern 4.9 years, 4.5 in Harvard.

So I am not surprised that the "international exposure" of the students was not so good in your MBA. But in top level US MBA programs the lack of work experience must be, generally speaking, more an exception.
quote
LP

MasterXX, I think your statistics support FMartin's opinion. You are talking about *average* work experience. If the average is 4-5 years, then this probably means that there are many students with very little or no work experience.

I still like the top US programs better than the top EU programs, but I think FMartin has a point.

MasterXX, I think your statistics support FMartin's opinion. You are talking about *average* work experience. If the average is 4-5 years, then this probably means that there are many students with very little or no work experience.

I still like the top US programs better than the top EU programs, but I think FMartin has a point.
quote
FMartin

Hi masterXX,

Actually, Chicago GSB is a top ten US MBA in all rankings (FT, Business Week, Wall Street Journal, etc). What is more, during my MBA I met many people from Harvard, where the average age is quite lower than Chicago. About the average work experience you mentioned, for instance in Columbia or Stern, two things: 1) 5 years is a good average for US MBAs, but not worldwide, and 2) 5 years is what their webpage say ..?? Please, do not misunderstand me. I have a wonderful experience in Chicago and I do not hesitate in recommending it to anyone. Not only for the brand (which is very important), but also for the learning experience and career prospects. I am just saying that if I would have to find a weakness or a negative trend in US MBAs, definitely it would be ?average work experience or age of many candidates? (and many is not the exception). And why are top US MBAs attracting recent gradates? It is just offer and demand. Many big companies are recruiting young MBA graduated (without or with very little work experience) for a lower salary. And that is a fact. As the salary for MBAs graduated continue to rise, and graduated with substantial work experience ask for higher salaries, some companies are finding that maybe it is most rentable to hire young MBA graduated (even though they will require more in-house training).

By the other side, like Jaitego said, it is clear that you won?t learn the same in 1 year MBA in Europe (or US) than in a 2 years MBA in US (or IESE for example in Europe). And that?s why I said that all depend on how much time and money are you willing to spend.

Hi masterXX,

Actually, Chicago GSB is a top ten US MBA in all rankings (FT, Business Week, Wall Street Journal, etc). What is more, during my MBA I met many people from Harvard, where the average age is quite lower than Chicago. About the average work experience you mentioned, for instance in Columbia or Stern, two things: 1) 5 years is a good average for US MBAs, but not worldwide, and 2) 5 years is what their webpage say ..?? Please, do not misunderstand me. I have a wonderful experience in Chicago and I do not hesitate in recommending it to anyone. Not only for the brand (which is very important), but also for the learning experience and career prospects. I am just saying that if I would have to find a weakness or a negative trend in US MBAs, definitely it would be ?average work experience or age of many candidates? (and many is not the exception). And why are top US MBAs attracting recent gradates? It is just offer and demand. Many big companies are recruiting young MBA graduated (without or with very little work experience) for a lower salary. And that is a fact. As the salary for MBAs graduated continue to rise, and graduated with substantial work experience ask for higher salaries, some companies are finding that maybe it is most rentable to hire young MBA graduated (even though they will require more in-house training).

By the other side, like Jaitego said, it is clear that you won?t learn the same in 1 year MBA in Europe (or US) than in a 2 years MBA in US (or IESE for example in Europe). And that?s why I said that all depend on how much time and money are you willing to spend.
quote
jona

I'm quite surprised about your comments I admit. It's a quite common question on this board which MBA, especially in the US, don't require work experience, and the general tone in the answers is that an MBA is conceived as a post work exerience degree, and that is doesn't make much sense to go on directly after finishing a bachelor. I was convinced, and think I have even read several times, that for applying for one of the serious US MBA programs work experience is one of the basic conditions.
In Europe it's quite normal to ask MBA applicants for a minimum of work experience.

Quality of the program is one thing, the other thing is who you mingle with, professors and students, and I would highly appreciate to study together with people being in a simliar situation as me, meaning a bit older than college students, some work experience (which I think has a major influence on how you approach your stuies), international exp. Maybe I could sum it up saying: people with a certain maturity...

I'm quite surprised about your comments I admit. It's a quite common question on this board which MBA, especially in the US, don't require work experience, and the general tone in the answers is that an MBA is conceived as a post work exerience degree, and that is doesn't make much sense to go on directly after finishing a bachelor. I was convinced, and think I have even read several times, that for applying for one of the serious US MBA programs work experience is one of the basic conditions.
In Europe it's quite normal to ask MBA applicants for a minimum of work experience.

Quality of the program is one thing, the other thing is who you mingle with, professors and students, and I would highly appreciate to study together with people being in a simliar situation as me, meaning a bit older than college students, some work experience (which I think has a major influence on how you approach your stuies), international exp. Maybe I could sum it up saying: people with a certain maturity...

quote
busy486

Hey Guys,

woaw... amazing knowledge. Someone said smth about the Harvard MBA beign younger than most programs - that is what I know as well... I mean - a guy in my university - they took him right after his B.A.
And I don´t know about you and your work exp... but me, .. well I was studying and working ever since my freshman year. ... so that could be concidered work experience. Plus all the club I´ve started..

You know what makes me really really wonder -everybody is mentioning Harvard and Chicago on the forums.. ok.. so who goes to the other 1000 MBA programs all arround the world?
And if you just have a look at some sites.. you will find at least 20 of them saying.. "this and this publ ranks us as top". But, I don`t know ab#nybody wanting to go there...

Hey Guys,

woaw... amazing knowledge. Someone said smth about the Harvard MBA beign younger than most programs - that is what I know as well... I mean - a guy in my university - they took him right after his B.A.
And I don´t know about you and your work exp... but me, .. well I was studying and working ever since my freshman year. ... so that could be concidered work experience. Plus all the club I´ve started..

You know what makes me really really wonder -everybody is mentioning Harvard and Chicago on the forums.. ok.. so who goes to the other 1000 MBA programs all arround the world?
And if you just have a look at some sites.. you will find at least 20 of them saying.. "this and this publ ranks us as top". But, I don`t know ab#nybody wanting to go there...
quote
jona

Hey busy, I completely agree with you - discussion everywhere turns around Harvard, Chicago and similar, where only a select few will be able to get in.
Most people are interested in the other MBAs, since most people don't belong to the group of the select few. And it's so difficult and annoying to get hold of valid information on these other MBAs...

Hey busy, I completely agree with you - discussion everywhere turns around Harvard, Chicago and similar, where only a select few will be able to get in.
Most people are interested in the other MBAs, since most people don't belong to the group of the select few. And it's so difficult and annoying to get hold of valid information on these other MBAs...
quote
LP

I think one of the reasons for this difference in work experience between US and EU programs may be the way in which undergraduate studies are structured.

In the US, undergraduate degrees are quite general. Even if you major in some subjects, your degree is quite general. I think this is why business schools were created in the first place: in the same way as there are graduate schools for lawyers, medical doctors, or nurses, there are graduate schools for managers.

Somehow the MBA degree became so successful in the US that it was imported by Europe. But in Europe undergraduate degrees are specialized, and you can very well get a BA in Business Administration. So it doesn't really make sense to finish a BBA and then move straight on to an MBA. Work experience becomes more necessary then.

I think one of the reasons for this difference in work experience between US and EU programs may be the way in which undergraduate studies are structured.

In the US, undergraduate degrees are quite general. Even if you major in some subjects, your degree is quite general. I think this is why business schools were created in the first place: in the same way as there are graduate schools for lawyers, medical doctors, or nurses, there are graduate schools for managers.

Somehow the MBA degree became so successful in the US that it was imported by Europe. But in Europe undergraduate degrees are specialized, and you can very well get a BA in Business Administration. So it doesn't really make sense to finish a BBA and then move straight on to an MBA. Work experience becomes more necessary then.
quote
busy486

ok.. FMartin .. u are a Chicago alumn.. that sounds cool .. but tell me .. u got in there right after your BA? cause I understood u were dissapointed by the age, internationality, work experience.. but i did not understand why..
and.. I don´t know.. why is it so bad if 90% of the student body is american? sorry.. i come from an international university.. so here the most percentage u fill find of a nation is 15% .. and we have 3 big nations.. and the rest 85 .. somewhere between 2-10.. but.. i like it.. but .. I´ve always heard that Americans are open... so .. I wouldn´t feel marginalised or smth.. so.. what is this with internationality? .. cause from my POV, the US way of doing bussines is the best.. and .. I would learn more from ppl who have it in their blod.. right?

ok.. FMartin .. u are a Chicago alumn.. that sounds cool .. but tell me .. u got in there right after your BA? cause I understood u were dissapointed by the age, internationality, work experience.. but i did not understand why..
and.. I don´t know.. why is it so bad if 90% of the student body is american? sorry.. i come from an international university.. so here the most percentage u fill find of a nation is 15% .. and we have 3 big nations.. and the rest 85 .. somewhere between 2-10.. but.. i like it.. but .. I´ve always heard that Americans are open... so .. I wouldn´t feel marginalised or smth.. so.. what is this with internationality? .. cause from my POV, the US way of doing bussines is the best.. and .. I would learn more from ppl who have it in their blod.. right?
quote
jona

I understood u were dissapointed by the age, internationality, work experience.. but i did not understand why..

why is it so bad if 90% of the student body is american?

cause from my POV, the US way of doing bussines is the best.. and .. I would learn more from ppl who have it in their blod.. right?


If you're looking for the American experience, and that's what it sounds like, it is an advantage to study with a majority of Americans in your class. Obviously. If you want to discover american business style, try to discover it during your studies.
But I think that many people see the MBA as a program conferring them high level skills and making them able to perform in the most diverse challenging situations in the international business world. In that sense it's important to experience working in a team with mixed origins, and different mentalities - it's a good exercise for flexibility.
And don't forget, business is constantly becoming more international.

For instance, if you take business contacts with China, becoming very important, it will certainly help lot if you are used to working in an intercultural setting, you'll be well prepared. And it might be quite tough to lack that experience - because rules for cooperation are very different in China, difficult to understand too. Business projects might just fail, and possible that you don't even understand why...

Same goes for the age/experience of your fellows: Obviously, in terms of know how and analysis, you will benefit a lot more of class mates who are more experienced and mature.

So, all depends what you look for in an MBA, and what your future plans are.

<blockquote> I understood u were dissapointed by the age, internationality, work experience.. but i did not understand why.. </blockquote>
<blockquote> why is it so bad if 90% of the student body is american? </blockquote>
<blockquote> cause from my POV, the US way of doing bussines is the best.. and .. I would learn more from ppl who have it in their blod.. right? </blockquote>

If you're looking for the American experience, and that's what it sounds like, it is an advantage to study with a majority of Americans in your class. Obviously. If you want to discover american business style, try to discover it during your studies.
But I think that many people see the MBA as a program conferring them high level skills and making them able to perform in the most diverse challenging situations in the international business world. In that sense it's important to experience working in a team with mixed origins, and different mentalities - it's a good exercise for flexibility.
And don't forget, business is constantly becoming more international.

For instance, if you take business contacts with China, becoming very important, it will certainly help lot if you are used to working in an intercultural setting, you'll be well prepared. And it might be quite tough to lack that experience - because rules for cooperation are very different in China, difficult to understand too. Business projects might just fail, and possible that you don't even understand why...

Same goes for the age/experience of your fellows: Obviously, in terms of know how and analysis, you will benefit a lot more of class mates who are more experienced and mature.

So, all depends what you look for in an MBA, and what your future plans are.

quote
busy486

:) thx Jona
well.. u are actaually very right.. I am looking for this experience.. and I just realised it :)
But even so, I thought that everybody was heading to the US business stile because they have to - as the US companies are the most pressent in Fortune 500, thus are investing a lot into companies outside the US

I wanted to ask you smth as well. do u have already an MBA degree? and from where ? thanks

:) thx Jona
well.. u are actaually very right.. I am looking for this experience.. and I just realised it :)
But even so, I thought that everybody was heading to the US business stile because they have to - as the US companies are the most pressent in Fortune 500, thus are investing a lot into companies outside the US

I wanted to ask you smth as well. do u have already an MBA degree? and from where ? thanks
quote
dewaans

To judge the quality/brand value of any Business School, just take a look at the recruiting companies and see how many students were hired by McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, BCG, Bain, Morgan Stanley and Lehman Brothers.

This alone is enough to tell you which schools are worth going to.

Remember, an MBA is a considered to be a terminal degree which means that you should get it from a school that will allow you to pursue whatever you really want to do.

WIth ultra-elite schools such as Chicago, Wharton and Harvard the doors for almost all fields and companies are wide open.

This is not the case for the elite, sub-elite schools such as Cornells and Yales.

Regarding Europe, go there if you get into London Business School, Insead, IMD and to a lesser extend Said (Oxford) or Judge (Cambridge). The rest are good but will not open all doors nor attract the right type of employers.

To judge the quality/brand value of any Business School, just take a look at the recruiting companies and see how many students were hired by McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, BCG, Bain, Morgan Stanley and Lehman Brothers.

This alone is enough to tell you which schools are worth going to.

Remember, an MBA is a considered to be a terminal degree which means that you should get it from a school that will allow you to pursue whatever you really want to do.

WIth ultra-elite schools such as Chicago, Wharton and Harvard the doors for almost all fields and companies are wide open.

This is not the case for the elite, sub-elite schools such as Cornells and Yales.

Regarding Europe, go there if you get into London Business School, Insead, IMD and to a lesser extend Said (Oxford) or Judge (Cambridge). The rest are good but will not open all doors nor attract the right type of employers.
quote
jona

Of course, dewaans - the top schools are where most recruiters look first, at least if we are talking about big companies as McKinsey etc.
Unfortunately students can not just enroll for an MBA in the school they judge best, but many factors play a role.
Only those students with extraordinary results everywhere (GPA, GMAT, TOEFL) and absolutely no money problems can freely chose the school they want, and go where chances are best afterwards to be employed by one of the named recruiteres.

All the others have to bother gathering all kinds of information to find a good MBA worth doing.

Of course, dewaans - the top schools are where most recruiters look first, at least if we are talking about big companies as McKinsey etc.
Unfortunately students can not just enroll for an MBA in the school they judge best, but many factors play a role.
Only those students with extraordinary results everywhere (GPA, GMAT, TOEFL) and absolutely no money problems can freely chose the school they want, and go where chances are best afterwards to be employed by one of the named recruiteres.

All the others have to bother gathering all kinds of information to find a good MBA worth doing.
quote
dewaans

Jona, it depends what you want to get out of your MBA. if you are looking for any management job then 2nd tier and even 3rd tier are good.

Regarding finances, I don't think it's a problem. Most good BSchools have great financial aid programs. And you should be able to get interest-free student loans to pay for your MBA.

That is what almost 90% of the people in the US do.

Any decent MBA program will give you good knowledge. So from that perspective you can't go wrong.

Jona, it depends what you want to get out of your MBA. if you are looking for any management job then 2nd tier and even 3rd tier are good.

Regarding finances, I don't think it's a problem. Most good BSchools have great financial aid programs. And you should be able to get interest-free student loans to pay for your MBA.

That is what almost 90% of the people in the US do.

Any decent MBA program will give you good knowledge. So from that perspective you can't go wrong.

quote
jona

Ok, then let me put it in a different way. I think top tier MBAs are out of reach for many people, because they are not good enough to get in. But it's true if you succeed an admission to a top tier school, you are good enough to be eligible for loans and scholarships.

So in the end it is more a problem of performance...

I would presume that the majority of students will have a problem to get into the top tier programs - also of the users on this board. Thats why we always have that discussion going on about 2nd and 3rd tier.

Ok, then let me put it in a different way. I think top tier MBAs are out of reach for many people, because they are not good enough to get in. But it's true if you succeed an admission to a top tier school, you are good enough to be eligible for loans and scholarships.

So in the end it is more a problem of performance...

I would presume that the majority of students will have a problem to get into the top tier programs - also of the users on this board. Thats why we always have that discussion going on about 2nd and 3rd tier.
quote

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