Best MSc & MiM degrees for international students' placement


Onyva

Hi, I thought it'd be best to use this thread rather than opening a new one.

I'd like to ask Duncan, what are you thoughts on INSEAD's and IESE's new MiMs?

The former already appears in QS rankings amongst the top five while the latter, one year older, hasn't year been shown in any.

I understood you'd place IESE on par with INSEAD coursework wise for MBAs (even though with a slightly lower international reputation) and I'm curious what are your thoughts on their latest offering, the MiM.

Hi, I thought it'd be best to use this thread rather than opening a new one.<br><br>I'd like to ask Duncan, what are you thoughts on INSEAD's and IESE's new MiMs?<br><br>The former already appears in QS rankings amongst the top five while the latter, one year older, hasn't year been shown in any.<br><br>I understood you'd place IESE on par with INSEAD coursework wise for MBAs (even though with a slightly lower international reputation) and I'm curious what are your thoughts on their latest offering, the MiM.<br>
quote
Duncan

Given the small class size, I would be surprised if the IESE MiM got into the rankings easily. They seem to be have been pretty happy with the small size of the intial cohorts and I think they are loyal to the narrow focus of their MiM on feeding into IESE's partner employers in Europe. Unlike other schools, they have more or less no interest in recruiting Asian students who won't fit the needs of IESE's partners. 

PS In terms of the educational experience, I'd put IESE slightly above Insead. In particular, on the quant side and in terms to forcing students to do the prep before classes, is is a serious, conservative, nose-to-the-grindstone school.

[Edited by Duncan on Dec 17, 2021]

Given the small class size, I would be surprised if the IESE MiM got into the rankings easily. They seem to be have been pretty happy with the small size of the intial cohorts and I think they are loyal to the narrow focus of their MiM on feeding into IESE's partner employers in Europe. Unlike other schools, they have more or less no interest in recruiting Asian students who won't fit the needs of IESE's partners.&nbsp;<br><br>PS In terms of the educational experience, I'd put IESE slightly above Insead. In particular, on the quant side and in terms to forcing students to do the prep before classes, is is a serious, conservative, nose-to-the-grindstone school.
quote
Duncan

Just to clarify, without 30 to 40 responses it's hard to get into the rankings. That's easy if you have 100 MiMs but very hard if you only have 40. 

Just to clarify, without 30 to 40 responses it's hard to get into the rankings. That's easy if you have 100 MiMs but very hard if you only have 40.&nbsp;
quote
Onyva

Just to clarify, without 30 to 40 responses it's hard to get into the rankings. That's easy if you have 100 MiMs but very hard if you only have 40. 




Makes a lot of sense, I've understood that IESE plans to reach around 100 students in the MiM for the new intake (allowed by new investments and expansion of the Madrid campus) and this could help me appear in rakings.

I guess HSG can appear well in rankings because all of the 50 or so students are keen on providing feedback to ranking companies.

[quote]Just to clarify, without 30 to 40 responses it's hard to get into the rankings. That's easy if you have 100 MiMs but very hard if you only have 40.&nbsp; [/quote]<br><br><br><br>Makes a lot of sense, I've understood that IESE plans to reach around 100 students in the MiM for the new intake (allowed by new investments and expansion of the Madrid campus) and this could help me appear in rakings.<br><br>I guess HSG can appear well in rankings because all of the 50 or so students are keen on providing feedback to ranking companies.<br>
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Onyva

Given the small class size, I would be surprised if the IESE MiM got into the rankings easily. They seem to be pretty happy with the small cohort and the narrow focus of their MiM on feeding into IESE's partner employers in Europe. Unlike other schools, they have more or less no interest in recruiting Asian students who won't fit the needs of IESE's partners. 

In terms of the educational experience, I'd put IESE slightly above Insead. 



Thanks a lot for the super quick yet insightful reply.

I see that the two schools really operate with different core tenants.

I'll have a look at their placing (INSEAD doesn't publish any employment reports as far as I'm aware but LinkedIn comes to the rescue).

Since you're way more knowleadgeable than me, would IESE partners be the ones I can find in the brochure noted with "on campus presence"? Often said "presence" can be fool's gold but with such a small cohort I'm inclined to think it's closer to real value.


Once again, congrats for being helpful and so quick!

[quote]Given the small class size, I would be surprised if the IESE MiM got into the rankings easily. They seem to be pretty happy with the small cohort and the narrow focus of their MiM on feeding into IESE's partner employers in Europe. Unlike other schools, they have more or less no interest in recruiting Asian students who won't fit the needs of IESE's partners.&nbsp;<br><br>In terms of the educational experience, I'd put IESE slightly above Insead.&nbsp; [/quote]<br><br><br>Thanks a lot for the super quick yet insightful reply.<br><br>I see that the two schools really operate with different core tenants.<br><br>I'll have a look at their placing (INSEAD doesn't publish any employment reports as far as I'm aware but LinkedIn comes to the rescue).<br><br>Since you're way more knowleadgeable than me, would IESE partners be the ones I can find in the brochure noted with "on campus presence"? Often said "presence" can be fool's gold but with such a small cohort I'm inclined to think it's closer to real value.<br><br><br>Once again, congrats for being helpful and so quick!<br>
quote
Duncan

Yes, I think it's wise to assume that most of the major recruiters appear on campus. IESE has a formal Key Account Management system for major corporate partners, co-ordinating alumni, exec ed requirements and degree programme hiring. I think that really reflects IESE's almost unique role as a catalyst of the internationalisation of Spanish businesses from the year of late Francoism through to today. I think only SSE has a similarly central role in a European economy. If people don't fit the needs of those partners, they won't be sought out by IESE.

Both IESE and ESADE seem to be growing their Madrid locations. That's great news. 

PS I see the IESE campus in Madrid has moved location to near the ESCP campus. They have an amazing location: that building is very large. There must be extensive plans there. 

[Edited by Duncan on Dec 17, 2021]

Yes, I think it's wise to assume that most of the major recruiters appear on campus. IESE has a formal Key Account Management system for major corporate partners, co-ordinating alumni, exec ed requirements and degree programme hiring. I think that really reflects IESE's almost unique role as a catalyst of the internationalisation of Spanish businesses from the year of late Francoism through to today. I think only SSE has a similarly central role in a European economy. If people don't fit the needs of those partners, they won't be sought out by IESE.<br><br>Both IESE and ESADE seem to be growing their Madrid locations. That's great news.&nbsp;<br><br>PS I see the IESE campus in Madrid has moved location to near the ESCP campus. They have an amazing location: that building is very large. There must be extensive plans there.&nbsp;
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Duncan

Also HSG really is a winner at the rankings game, and it's highly concerned about rankings. HSG has much more competition than it used to. For most of its life, there have been no other elite business schools in the Germany-speaking world. Then in the last 40 years, new schools launched (or entered the DACH market) that, in the last 15 years, have equalled or overtaken it in the eyes of many. So, HSG is working harder to get students from outside the German-speaking region. On the other hand IESE, and the rest of the University of Navarra, have an untouchable place in the Latin world because of Open Dei's billions and wide network. 

Also HSG really is a winner at the rankings game, and it's highly concerned about rankings. HSG has much more competition than it used to. For most of its life, there have been no other elite business schools in the Germany-speaking world. Then in the last 40 years, new schools launched (or entered the DACH market) that, in the last 15 years, have equalled or overtaken it in the eyes of many. So, HSG is working harder to get students from outside the German-speaking region. On the other hand IESE, and the rest of the University of Navarra, have an untouchable place in the Latin world because of Open Dei's billions and wide network.&nbsp;
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Duncan

Context: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/30/opus-dei 

Context: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/30/opus-dei&nbsp;
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Onyva

Yes, I think it's wise to assume that most of the major recruiters appear on campus. IESE has a formal Key Account Management system for major corporate partners, co-ordinating alumni, exec ed requirements and degree programme hiring. I think that really reflects IESE's almost unique role as a catalyst of the internationalisation of Spanish businesses from the year of late Francoism through to today. I think only SSE has a similarly central role in a European economy. If people don't fit the needs of those partners, they won't be sought out by IESE.

Both IESE and ESADE seem to be growing their Madrid locations. That's great news. 




Thank you for your thoughts, it's really interesting to see how IESE has played a key role in the Spanish economic boom in the '60s ad '70s and continues to hold a pivotal role.

I'm personally more interested in Central Europe and I'm thinking that there might be some resistance (exluded, say, Austria and Bavaria) to a Business School with strong ties to the Catholic Church. That being said, it's always a pleasure to learn more about all the offerings around.

[Edited by Onyva on Dec 15, 2021]

[quote]Yes, I think it's wise to assume that most of the major recruiters appear on campus. IESE has a formal Key Account Management system for major corporate partners, co-ordinating alumni, exec ed requirements and degree programme hiring. I think that really reflects IESE's almost unique role as a catalyst of the internationalisation of Spanish businesses from the year of late Francoism through to today. I think only SSE has a similarly central role in a European economy. If people don't fit the needs of those partners, they won't be sought out by IESE.<br><br>Both IESE and ESADE seem to be growing their Madrid locations. That's great news.&nbsp; [/quote]<br><br><br><br>Thank you for your thoughts, it's really interesting to see how IESE has played a key role in the Spanish economic boom in the '60s ad '70s and continues to hold a pivotal role.<br><br>I'm personally more interested in Central Europe and I'm thinking that there might be some resistance (exluded, say, Austria and Bavaria) to a Business School with strong ties to the Catholic Church. That being said, it's always a pleasure to learn more about all the offerings around.<br>
quote
Onyva

Also HSG really is a winner at the rankings game, and it's highly concerned about rankings. HSG has much more competition than it used to. For most of its life, there have been no other elite business schools in the Germany-speaking world. Then in the last 40 years, new schools launched (or entered the DACH market) that, in the last 15 years, have equalled or overtaken it in the eyes of many. So, HSG is working harder to get students from outside the German-speaking region. On the other hand IESE, and the rest of the University of Navarra, have an untouchable place in the Latin world because of Open Dei's billions and wide network. 




You're right, HSG has prestige by its side while WHU, Mannheim, Frankfurt, WU and even ESCP in Berlin are slowly providing more opportunities to people interested in the DACH region. Only time will tell how things will go. For sure HSG will keep its advantage in Switzerland unless HEC Lausanne (or even ETH with its MTEC Department) rise up considerably.

[quote]Also HSG really is a winner at the rankings game, and it's highly concerned about rankings. HSG has much more competition than it used to. For most of its life, there have been no other elite business schools in the Germany-speaking world. Then in the last 40 years, new schools launched (or entered the DACH market) that, in the last 15 years, have equalled or overtaken it in the eyes of many. So, HSG is working harder to get students from outside the German-speaking region. On the other hand IESE, and the rest of the University of Navarra, have an untouchable place in the Latin world because of Open Dei's billions and wide network.&nbsp; [/quote]<br><br><br><br>You're right, HSG has prestige by its side while WHU, Mannheim, Frankfurt, WU and even ESCP in Berlin are slowly providing more opportunities to people interested in the DACH region. Only time will tell how things will go. For sure HSG will keep its advantage in Switzerland unless HEC Lausanne (or even ETH with its MTEC Department) rise up considerably.<br>
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Onyva




Interesting article. Thankfully the story told is from the 90s and I hope that students don't feel the duty to punish themselves as much now. To each their own, of course.



All in all, there's quite a choice with the European MiM industry these days, innit? One has to tread carefully to avoid the bad apples.

[quote]Context: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/30/opus-dei&nbsp; [/quote]<br><br><br>Interesting article. Thankfully the story told is from the 90s and I hope that students don't feel the duty to punish themselves as much now. To each their own, of course.<br><br><br><br>All in all, there's quite a choice with the European MiM industry these days, innit? One has to tread carefully to avoid the bad apples.<br>
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Duncan

I don't think Opus Dei has changed much since the 1990s and, certainly, IESE staff guilty of peccadillos have to leave the school and often end up at ESADE. But I doubt that troubles employers too much: IESE people have tight control over the numbers and solid, orthodox, management approach. 

HSG leads, indeed, in German-speaking Switzerland but in Romandy I'm not sure it has quite the same sheen. It can feel a bit parochial to some. 

PS on the topic of IESE and the University of Navarra, I recently read the school's dress code. Very conservative. I think my local bank has a less conservative dress code. 

[Edited by Duncan on Dec 17, 2021]

I don't think Opus Dei has changed much since the 1990s and, certainly, IESE staff guilty of peccadillos have to leave the school and often end up at ESADE. But I doubt that troubles employers too much: IESE people have tight control over the numbers and solid, orthodox, management approach.&nbsp;<br><br>HSG leads, indeed, in German-speaking Switzerland but in Romandy I'm not sure it has quite the same sheen. It can feel a bit parochial to some.&nbsp;<br><br>PS on the topic of IESE and the University of Navarra, I recently read the school's dress code. Very conservative. I think my local bank has a less conservative dress code.&nbsp;
quote
Onyva

I don't think Opus Dei has changed much since the 1990s and, certainly, IESE staff guilty of peccadillos have to leave the school and often end up at ESADE. But I doubt that troubles employers too much: IESE people have tight control over the numbers and solid, orthodox, management approach. 

HSG leads, indeed, in German-speaking Switzerland but in Romandy I'm not sure it has quite the same sheen. It can feel a bit parochial to some. 


Thank you once more for all the little tidbits of useful info you give with every single response, you're not only very knowledgeable but kind too.


One last question for a while: what are in your mind the leaders for Swiss-Romandy?

Apart from HSG, the only local reputable universities I can think of are IMD, HEC Lausanne and to some extent GSEM Geneva. In my case (looking at MiM), only the last two offer such a course.

I'm curious whether the HEC/ESSEC/ESCP trio (now with INSEAD joining in to make it a quartet) might also have some momentum there or not.

[Edited by Onyva on Dec 15, 2021]

[quote]I don't think Opus Dei has changed much since the 1990s and, certainly, IESE staff guilty of peccadillos have to leave the school and often end up at ESADE. But I doubt that troubles employers too much: IESE people have tight control over the numbers and solid, orthodox, management approach.&nbsp;<br><br>HSG leads, indeed, in German-speaking Switzerland but in Romandy I'm not sure it has quite the same sheen. It can feel a bit parochial to some.&nbsp; [/quote]<br><br>Thank you once more for all the little tidbits of useful info you give with every single response, you're not only very knowledgeable but kind too.<br><br><br>One last question for a while: what are in your mind the leaders for Swiss-Romandy?<br><br>Apart from HSG, the only local reputable universities I can think of are IMD, HEC Lausanne and to some extent GSEM Geneva. In my case (looking at MiM), only the last two offer such a course.<br><br>I'm curious whether the HEC/ESSEC/ESCP trio (now with INSEAD joining in to make it a quartet) might also have some momentum there or not.<br>
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Duncan

If you want to work in Romandy, don't restrict yourself to courses taught in English. EPFL is a strong choice to add to your list, as the top university in those regions. Also see How to use LinkedIn to find the best school www.find-mba.com/board/33571 and Do you need to speak the local language? www.find-mba.com/board/34713 

If you want to work in Romandy, don't restrict yourself to courses taught in English. EPFL is a strong choice to add to your list, as the top university in those regions. Also see How to use LinkedIn to find the best school&nbsp;www.find-mba.com/board/33571 and Do you need to speak the local language?&nbsp;www.find-mba.com/board/34713&nbsp;
quote
Duncan

If you are interested in French schools, EMLyon, Grenoble and EDHEC in Nice are close and have some advantages. 

If you are interested in French schools, EMLyon, Grenoble and EDHEC in Nice are close and have some advantages.&nbsp;
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Onyva

Thanks Duncan, much appreciated! You're a source of exceptional knowledge.

Thanks Duncan, much appreciated! You're a source of exceptional knowledge.<br>
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Ridhima05

Hi Duncan,
Could you please suggest which rankings should International students look for while choosing their management degree in France? The FT European Business School rankings or the FT MIM rankings( if I wish to do MIM). 
Also, Audencia Business School is placed at 31st rank in the overall European Business school ranking and 44th in MIM ranking. So shall I choose Audencia or Skema?

Hi Duncan,<br>Could you please suggest which rankings should International students look for while choosing their management degree in France? The FT European Business School rankings or the FT MIM rankings( if I wish to do MIM).&nbsp;<br>Also, Audencia Business School is placed at 31st rank in the overall European Business school ranking and 44th in MIM ranking. So shall I choose Audencia or Skema?<br>
quote
Duncan

Start with your goals. Maybe neither of those schools will meet your goal. The MiM column in the European ranking is in the same others as the full MiM rankings: they simply remove the schools outside Europe. Since the MiM rankings have more data, including things like placement and international mobility, I guess that is a great tool. However, for example, imagine if you wanted to work in France, maybe a full-time diploma in French language and culture at a state university would be better than attending an English program at one of the grandes ecoles.  The DUEF from one of the universities in the ADCUEFE network would be inexpensive and powerful. I studied French at one of those schools.

PS read the post at the start of this thread, on page 1. 

[Edited by Duncan on Dec 17, 2021]

Start with your goals. Maybe neither of those schools will meet your goal. The MiM column in the European ranking is in the same others as the full MiM rankings: they simply remove the schools outside Europe. Since the MiM rankings have more data, including things like placement and international mobility, I guess that is a great tool. However, for example, imagine if you wanted to work in France, maybe a full-time diploma in French language and culture at a state university would be better than attending an English program at one of the grandes ecoles.&nbsp; The DUEF from one of the universities in the ADCUEFE network would be inexpensive and powerful. I studied French at one of those schools.<br><br>PS read the post at the start of this thread, on page 1.&nbsp;
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Ridhima05

Thank you for the response.
I have completed my A2 level till now and before joining a school in the Sep 2022 intake, I would finish B1 level. Also, during the first year of the MIM, I would finish my B2 level. Would it still be difficult to get a job in France then? 
Also, what are your views regarding Audencia and Skema Business Schools?

Thank you for the response.<br>I have completed my A2 level till now and before joining a school in the Sep 2022 intake, I would finish B1 level. Also, during the first year of the MIM, I would finish my B2 level. Would it still be difficult to get a job in France then?&nbsp;<br>Also, what are your views regarding Audencia and Skema Business Schools?
quote
Duncan

Again, read Do you need to speak the local language? www.find-mba.com/board/34713  

I can't imagine what work you can do with B2 language skills but, certainly, very limited options for professional employment. 

Audencia and Skema are good schools. Audencia's MiM is much smaller, and Skema has many advantages of scale. However, if you have A2 French now and want to work in France, I recommend you get to B2 French first and then take an MSc taught in French. 

Again, read Do you need to speak the local language?&nbsp;www.find-mba.com/board/34713&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>I can't imagine what work you can do with B2 language skills but, certainly, very limited options for professional employment.&nbsp;<br><br>Audencia and Skema are good schools. Audencia's MiM is much smaller, and Skema has many advantages of scale. However, if you have A2 French now and want to work in France, I recommend you get to B2 French first and then take an MSc taught in French.&nbsp;
quote

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