RSM, What's the truth about it?


Duncan
If the quality of students is better at Vlerick, why do you think RSM grads earn more, with a 114% increase in salary, comrades to the 88% rise at Vlerick?
If the quality of students is better at Vlerick, why do you think RSM grads earn more, with a 114% increase in salary, comrades to the 88% rise at Vlerick?
quote
mbaqanda
Please read my post more carefully Duncan. I am not saying that Vlerick is better than RSM, but I am saying that in certain cases it might be more suitable. Also, I am not saying that you should not go to RSM, I am saying that you should consider other options in the region.

Vlerick has its attractive sides as well. Firstly, they are a lot cheaper. Secondly, you need to do a deep dive into the salary reports before you can draw any conclusion.

Niels
MBA Q&A
Please read my post more carefully Duncan. I am not saying that Vlerick is better than RSM, but I am saying that in certain cases it might be more suitable. Also, I am not saying that you should not go to RSM, I am saying that you should consider other options in the region.

Vlerick has its attractive sides as well. Firstly, they are a lot cheaper. Secondly, you need to do a deep dive into the salary reports before you can draw any conclusion.

Niels
MBA Q&A
quote
RSM is quite clearly a third-rate programme that looks set to fall dramatically in the rankings in the coming years. I would not be surprised if the MBA programme was shut down. I hear nothing but negative comments from alumni and they say such things as "RSM ruined my life." From what I understand, the management team is completely incompetent and the programme has gone down hill for at least half a dozen years. The statistics bear this out. According to RSM's own statistics, available here http://www.rsm.nl/fileadmin/Images_NEW/MBA/FTMBA/MBA_Career_Development_Centre_Report_2010-2011.pdf the number of students even being offered a job by graduation decreased from 81% in 2010 to 52.7% in 2011. Given that RSM holds graduation 3 months after classes end, instead of right after classes end like every other school I'm aware of, this means that RSM students can expect to only have a 50/50 chance of even being offered a job, let alone accepting a good offer, 3 months after classes end. For top schools in the US and Europe the job acceptance rate is 90%+ in most schools, with the lower end being 80%+. And according to RSM's statistics, graduates of RSM now make less than $80k on average. This is far below what top schools report and is only $10k to $15k more than what undergraduates make coming out of bachelor's programmes at business schools.
RSM is quite clearly a third-rate programme that looks set to fall dramatically in the rankings in the coming years. I would not be surprised if the MBA programme was shut down. I hear nothing but negative comments from alumni and they say such things as "RSM ruined my life." From what I understand, the management team is completely incompetent and the programme has gone down hill for at least half a dozen years. The statistics bear this out. According to RSM's own statistics, available here http://www.rsm.nl/fileadmin/Images_NEW/MBA/FTMBA/MBA_Career_Development_Centre_Report_2010-2011.pdf the number of students even being offered a job by graduation decreased from 81% in 2010 to 52.7% in 2011. Given that RSM holds graduation 3 months after classes end, instead of right after classes end like every other school I'm aware of, this means that RSM students can expect to only have a 50/50 chance of even being offered a job, let alone accepting a good offer, 3 months after classes end. For top schools in the US and Europe the job acceptance rate is 90%+ in most schools, with the lower end being 80%+. And according to RSM's statistics, graduates of RSM now make less than $80k on average. This is far below what top schools report and is only $10k to $15k more than what undergraduates make coming out of bachelor's programmes at business schools.
quote
maubia
I ve talked to past RSM students (both mba and emba) and all were very pleased with their choices
Regards
I ve talked to past RSM students (both mba and emba) and all were very pleased with their choices
Regards
quote
Duncan
I encourage people to read the RSM's statistics. The other person is misrepresenting them. Three months after graduating, just six percent are without a job ofer (compared to zero in 2010). That reflects a very challenging labour market. RSM is one of the first schools to publish data for the class of 2011, and from what I know of other schools that's neither great nor unusually terrible.

The RSM reports "No employment in non-profit and governmental industries, with a further decline in
relative employment in consumer goods." That suggests to be that the unemployed are, perhaps, people who might be aiming at those sectors.

The idea that this will cause the programme to close is ridiculous. Base salary is higher, from under $80K to over $90K.

PS. Ooops. I had mis-read the salary for Euro; it's actually given in US Dollars.
I encourage people to read the RSM's statistics. The other person is misrepresenting them. Three months after graduating, just six percent are without a job ofer (compared to zero in 2010). That reflects a very challenging labour market. RSM is one of the first schools to publish data for the class of 2011, and from what I know of other schools that's neither great nor unusually terrible.

The RSM reports "No employment in non-profit and governmental industries, with a further decline in
relative employment in consumer goods." That suggests to be that the unemployed are, perhaps, people who might be aiming at those sectors.

The idea that this will cause the programme to close is ridiculous. Base salary is higher, from under $80K to over $90K.

PS. Ooops. I had mis-read the salary for Euro; it's actually given in US Dollars.
quote
Duncan is stating false facts. If you go to the link I provided (which is on RSM's own site), you will find these figures:
Job Offers
2011
Pre-graduation
52.7%
Post-graduation (< 3 months)
29.0%
Post-graduation (> 3 months)
6.1%
These indicate that 87.8% of people finally had a job offer at least 3 months after graduation (or six months after classes ended, if you want to compare this with other schools). This is not the same thing as having accepted a job offer. Other schools report the percentage of students that have accepted a job offer. Getting a bad offer is nothing to shout about. RSM's true statistics must be so dire that they dare not report them, and from anecdotal reports I hear they are very bad indeed. If you go to the link I provided you can also verify that in 2011 the average salary is reported in dollars and not euros.

RSM is in a downward spiral of worsening employment prospects that then cause lower quality students to attend and vice-versa. It is only a matter of time before the school is closed, from what I hear.
Duncan is stating false facts. If you go to the link I provided (which is on RSM's own site), you will find these figures:
Job Offers
2011
Pre-graduation
52.7%
Post-graduation (< 3 months)
29.0%
Post-graduation (> 3 months)
6.1%
These indicate that 87.8% of people finally had a job offer at least 3 months after graduation (or six months after classes ended, if you want to compare this with other schools). This is not the same thing as having accepted a job offer. Other schools report the percentage of students that have accepted a job offer. Getting a bad offer is nothing to shout about. RSM's true statistics must be so dire that they dare not report them, and from anecdotal reports I hear they are very bad indeed. If you go to the link I provided you can also verify that in 2011 the average salary is reported in dollars and not euros.

RSM is in a downward spiral of worsening employment prospects that then cause lower quality students to attend and vice-versa. It is only a matter of time before the school is closed, from what I hear.
quote
Duncan
Readers have to just trust their judgement on this. Speaking personally, I think it's ridiculous to say that RSM will be be closed down. If the other person is willing to put down a bet, I'll be happy to lay down $1000 on the school still being open in two years time.

As for the data, well the numbers for the FT ranking are audited, and people can read them at: http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-rankings-2012 RSM is 30th worldwide overall. It is certainly a hard time for MBA graduates, but its employment figures are similar to, or higher than, higher ranked schools like Columbia, Yale, Berkeley, NYU, HEC, NUS, HKUST, Chicago, Duke....

Seriously, it's the leading programme in Benelux and a huge business school at the undergraduate, pre-experience and post-experience level. This is - for sure - a terrible year for placement but if Insead can only place 84% and Manchester can only place 81% then RSM's 91% doesn't look too bad.
Readers have to just trust their judgement on this. Speaking personally, I think it's ridiculous to say that RSM will be be closed down. If the other person is willing to put down a bet, I'll be happy to lay down $1000 on the school still being open in two years time.

As for the data, well the numbers for the FT ranking are audited, and people can read them at: http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-rankings-2012 RSM is 30th worldwide overall. It is certainly a hard time for MBA graduates, but its employment figures are similar to, or higher than, higher ranked schools like Columbia, Yale, Berkeley, NYU, HEC, NUS, HKUST, Chicago, Duke....

Seriously, it's the leading programme in Benelux and a huge business school at the undergraduate, pre-experience and post-experience level. This is - for sure - a terrible year for placement but if Insead can only place 84% and Manchester can only place 81% then RSM's 91% doesn't look too bad.
quote
donho199
Duncan,

In your opinion what is the best MBA in Benelux?
Duncan,

In your opinion what is the best MBA in Benelux?
quote
marcellus
I am currently doing an EMBA at RSM, since 1 year.
The program has increased my toolpack; how to utilize opportunities; how to network better; what to look at in understanding whether a business is profitable.

Regarding the career service: I used it so far once-got what I wanted, had very straightforward feedback - they provided me quickly what was requesting. But I also knew what was asking for right up front.

Choice of MBA school is all about where YOU fit in best and what you want from it. What surrounding in terms of people etc.

I chose RSM because:
-the Dutch have a straightforward way of doing business and assumed I get what I pay for=>so far great
-i felt was 'fitting in'
-it's one of Europe's top business schools

Perhaps, the best thing have got out of it so far:
A drive to proceed in the direction that is best for me taking into consideration my strong and weak points. Understanding of strong/weak points functioning on team projects & in a team environment=>tools how to correct/improve.

The teachers are mostly from the US, South-Africa - the rest from UK, Canada ... Top rank with a personality. The lecture sessions are fun.

I encourage all who feel strongly about doing an MBA to go ahead. Just be prepared to work for it and take a preparation period of 1-2 years to plan and understand what you will use it for. What you (or at least I) want in the end is to be free in doing what you are good at. So get the tools, otherwise you'll be just doing what other people tell you!
The MBA will give you the tools, network and confidence. What you need before embarking on it is inspiration and a willigness to work.

I can't compare RSM with any other business schools....but if you have no cash flow problems or your company will pay-why not go for IMD, INSEAD or LBJ (not necessarily in order of priority).
I could not personally afford INSEAD or the top 5 ones.
Wouldn't recommend any school outside the top FT 50 rank.

Al the best & Good luck to all
I am currently doing an EMBA at RSM, since 1 year.
The program has increased my toolpack; how to utilize opportunities; how to network better; what to look at in understanding whether a business is profitable.

Regarding the career service: I used it so far once-got what I wanted, had very straightforward feedback - they provided me quickly what was requesting. But I also knew what was asking for right up front.

Choice of MBA school is all about where YOU fit in best and what you want from it. What surrounding in terms of people etc.

I chose RSM because:
-the Dutch have a straightforward way of doing business and assumed I get what I pay for=>so far great
-i felt was 'fitting in'
-it's one of Europe's top business schools

Perhaps, the best thing have got out of it so far:
A drive to proceed in the direction that is best for me taking into consideration my strong and weak points. Understanding of strong/weak points functioning on team projects & in a team environment=>tools how to correct/improve.

The teachers are mostly from the US, South-Africa - the rest from UK, Canada ... Top rank with a personality. The lecture sessions are fun.

I encourage all who feel strongly about doing an MBA to go ahead. Just be prepared to work for it and take a preparation period of 1-2 years to plan and understand what you will use it for. What you (or at least I) want in the end is to be free in doing what you are good at. So get the tools, otherwise you'll be just doing what other people tell you!
The MBA will give you the tools, network and confidence. What you need before embarking on it is inspiration and a willigness to work.

I can't compare RSM with any other business schools....but if you have no cash flow problems or your company will pay-why not go for IMD, INSEAD or LBJ (not necessarily in order of priority).
I could not personally afford INSEAD or the top 5 ones.
Wouldn't recommend any school outside the top FT 50 rank.

Al the best & Good luck to all

quote
pwllo
Hello everybody!

I trust that everybody is well. I'm actually amazed by the amount of passion that has gone into this thread (it is the most read in the entire European forum).
I would have never thought that a business school could raise such negativity in certain people. The discussion has moved from the poor quality of students who could "barely speak English" (at least the professors speak it pretty well, unlike those in some other "international" programmes in Southern Europe), to looking for conspiracy theories on placement rates. As an alumnus who has lived through the process (and graduated into a much better position in the job market than when I enrolled), I would say that because of the way the course is structured, students seeking to make a career change will have a harder time than those who want to re-enter their past industry in a higher position. The reason for this being that RSM unlike other Top schools does not have a mandatory summer internship. This however did not stop most of my classmates from landing well-paid jobs around the world.

As for the job market, may I remind the cynics out there that the Netherlands is one of the few job markets in Europe that has not been completely wrecked by the crisis (in Italy it is much, much worse), and where the pay is pretty good. However, local culture is such that employers will pay you a premium for having completed the MBA, but will not bestow on you lavish rewards just because you spent a year in a classroom (can you really blame them?).

Last but not least, what does student quality even mean? Is it just a measure of how high the average GMAT is (as the Economist seems to believe)? Is it a measure of how many enrolled students worked in investment banks and/or consulting firms before (the two most controversial industries in the world)? If I were my school's recruiter, I know I would change some things, but raising the GMAT requirement would not be one of them.

Overall, I don't know why some people are so obsessed with dissing this particular business school. You can accuse RSM of punching below its weight in the MBA when compared to their pre-experience programmes, you can also accuse their administration of not always practicing what they preach, but neither of these are exactly mortal errors.
Hello everybody!

I trust that everybody is well. I'm actually amazed by the amount of passion that has gone into this thread (it is the most read in the entire European forum).
I would have never thought that a business school could raise such negativity in certain people. The discussion has moved from the poor quality of students who could "barely speak English" (at least the professors speak it pretty well, unlike those in some other "international" programmes in Southern Europe), to looking for conspiracy theories on placement rates. As an alumnus who has lived through the process (and graduated into a much better position in the job market than when I enrolled), I would say that because of the way the course is structured, students seeking to make a career change will have a harder time than those who want to re-enter their past industry in a higher position. The reason for this being that RSM unlike other Top schools does not have a mandatory summer internship. This however did not stop most of my classmates from landing well-paid jobs around the world.

As for the job market, may I remind the cynics out there that the Netherlands is one of the few job markets in Europe that has not been completely wrecked by the crisis (in Italy it is much, much worse), and where the pay is pretty good. However, local culture is such that employers will pay you a premium for having completed the MBA, but will not bestow on you lavish rewards just because you spent a year in a classroom (can you really blame them?).

Last but not least, what does student quality even mean? Is it just a measure of how high the average GMAT is (as the Economist seems to believe)? Is it a measure of how many enrolled students worked in investment banks and/or consulting firms before (the two most controversial industries in the world)? If I were my school's recruiter, I know I would change some things, but raising the GMAT requirement would not be one of them.

Overall, I don't know why some people are so obsessed with dissing this particular business school. You can accuse RSM of punching below its weight in the MBA when compared to their pre-experience programmes, you can also accuse their administration of not always practicing what they preach, but neither of these are exactly mortal errors.
quote
Duncan
Hi donho. I think RSM is obviously the best business school in the Benelux region. Vlerick is high quality, but lacks the scale. TiasNimbas lacks appetite and direction. The best programme is really an individual questions, depending on the student's personal needs.
Hi donho. I think RSM is obviously the best business school in the Benelux region. Vlerick is high quality, but lacks the scale. TiasNimbas lacks appetite and direction. The best programme is really an individual questions, depending on the student's personal needs.
quote
ezra
As for the job market, may I remind the cynics out there that the Netherlands is one of the few job markets in Europe that has not been completely wrecked by the crisis (in Italy it is much, much worse), and where the pay is pretty good.

I agree with this. Having completed the program, what would you say the job opportunities are like for international students? I think that about half of the RSM MBA cohorts tend to come from Asia specifically - do you know if the Asian students from your cohort found it easy to land jobs in the Netherlands after graduation?

Last but not least, what does student quality even mean? Is it just a measure of how high the average GMAT is (as the Economist seems to believe)? Is it a measure of how many enrolled students worked in investment banks and/or consulting firms before (the two most controversial industries in the world)?

Point taken. I'd argue that average GMAT scores are one indicator of student quality (as higher scores signal a more competitive cohort.) but not the only indicator. Personally, I'd rather be in a class with more variety of students (different cultures, work backgrounds, etc.) than a class with only high GMAT-scorers.
<blockquote>As for the job market, may I remind the cynics out there that the Netherlands is one of the few job markets in Europe that has not been completely wrecked by the crisis (in Italy it is much, much worse), and where the pay is pretty good.</blockquote>
I agree with this. Having completed the program, what would you say the job opportunities are like for international students? I think that about half of the RSM MBA cohorts tend to come from Asia specifically - do you know if the Asian students from your cohort found it easy to land jobs in the Netherlands after graduation?

<blockquote>Last but not least, what does student quality even mean? Is it just a measure of how high the average GMAT is (as the Economist seems to believe)? Is it a measure of how many enrolled students worked in investment banks and/or consulting firms before (the two most controversial industries in the world)?</blockquote>
Point taken. I'd argue that average GMAT scores are one indicator of student quality (as higher scores signal a more competitive cohort.) but not the only indicator. Personally, I'd rather be in a class with more variety of students (different cultures, work backgrounds, etc.) than a class with only high GMAT-scorers.
quote
pwllo
Hello Ezra,

In my class we did indeed have a lot of people from Asia, though some of them had worked in Europe before. I have not looked at the official stats, but I can comfortably say that most of them did land jobs in Europe, and especially in the Netherlands (aided by the fact that non-EU students receive a 1 year Visa upon graduation that allows them to look for permanent employment there). Besides, in NL you can get a tax break covering part of your MBA fees upon landing a job, so the incentive to stay is rather compelling.

Pwllo
Hello Ezra,

In my class we did indeed have a lot of people from Asia, though some of them had worked in Europe before. I have not looked at the official stats, but I can comfortably say that most of them did land jobs in Europe, and especially in the Netherlands (aided by the fact that non-EU students receive a 1 year Visa upon graduation that allows them to look for permanent employment there). Besides, in NL you can get a tax break covering part of your MBA fees upon landing a job, so the incentive to stay is rather compelling.

Pwllo
quote
mba4me
Do North Americans and Aussies/Kiwis have more chance to land a job in the Netherlands than Asians? People tend to put all the non-EU in the same category, because all need a work visa, but in terms of previous experience (keeping everything else the same), people from the NA & Oceania regions tend to have more valuable experience. For example, it's WAY more difficult to get an Associate job at Goldman Sachs NYC than from Goldman Sachs Hong Kong, Beijing or Delhi. And I've heard that in some Asian offices, VP level employees are sometimes as young as 25.

I'm just wondering, why didn't European Union create a special work visa category for people from the US, Canada, Australia and NZ? Why put EVERYBODY in the same basket?
Do North Americans and Aussies/Kiwis have more chance to land a job in the Netherlands than Asians? People tend to put all the non-EU in the same category, because all need a work visa, but in terms of previous experience (keeping everything else the same), people from the NA & Oceania regions tend to have more valuable experience. For example, it's WAY more difficult to get an Associate job at Goldman Sachs NYC than from Goldman Sachs Hong Kong, Beijing or Delhi. And I've heard that in some Asian offices, VP level employees are sometimes as young as 25.

I'm just wondering, why didn't European Union create a special work visa category for people from the US, Canada, Australia and NZ? Why put EVERYBODY in the same basket?
quote
Duncan
We put everyone in the same basket because ability varies more than nationality.
We put everyone in the same basket because ability varies more than nationality.
quote

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