MBA Guru sounds suspiciously like one of the 2 people from my RSM MBA class that i know of who were not able to find employment due to their own lack of any social skills whatsoever.

His posting above, as well as on 3 other places around this forum only serves as a proof to my words. I will not go into details to counter each point that he makes, i will just refer to the average salary figure that he quoted. Of all the people that I know to have graduated in 2011, not a single one earns a salary below $80k, and i have heard of many more earning twice that amount.

Just ignore him.

The $70k figure is from The Economist's rankings and their information is supplied directly from the MBA schools. It sounds like 'noonesense' has no idea what they are talking about. This person's posts on this blog make it sound like they are being paid by the RSM MBA to spread misinformation.

Like I've said, I think it is not a secret who MBA Guru is - one of the two sill unemployed MBA 11s from RSM.

I just want to make one thing clear - the reason for this person being unemployed is not the Career Services, no matter how flawed this entity may or may not be at RSM. Rather, MBA Guru is not employed only because of his own lack of basic common sense, social skills, and reasoning.

I would urge anyone looking into RSM MBA to do their own research and by all means contact as many MBA 11 alumni as possible in order to make their own conclusions.

Last, regarding the salary, I again see this number as very far from reflecting the reality for any MBA graduate who is employed in the EU, NA, or SEA

This is turning into a rather nasty row between RSM's customers. Almost certainly, both sides are right:
- Neither RSM nor any other one-year MBA in Europe with a similar price point has an amazing careers service. The reality is - everywhere - that only a handful of European schools are even above average when compared to top MBA schools globally. In the FT's survey, RSM's alumni rank its careers service 65th out of 100 worldwide, and that sounds about right to me: worse than Bocconi or Cass; on a par with HEC; better than than Manchester or Lancaster.
- No European business school does well at managing students' expectations.
- RSM's core business is pre-experience MSc programmes in finance and management, which seem to be maintaining its rising positions in the European Business School rankings. That is where the growth is in the business education market.
- In the rankings, RSM is falling for MBA, EMBA and Exec Ed. And that segment is declining in demand and profitability. RSM perhaps won't invest a lot in MBA careers services, especially since its graduates are already above average for career progress. In terms of percentage of students employed after three months, they outperform INSEAD, IMD, ESADE and many other schools.
- Because of those great outcomes, the unhappy student is mistaken to present the school as she or he does. Clearly most students get good outcomes, and not bad ones. It's wrong to present RSM as substantially better or worse than other European schools of the same level.
- Let the buyer beware. If you want an MBA that assures you a job, study in the US or India. In Europe you just have to make yourself visible, and do the work.

Few weeks ago I personally met the RSM adcom...

1) she first tried to convince me that dutch are actually bilingual, that they speak english, ecc.. by the way, at the end, she admitted that a general knowledge of the
local language is welcome. This is quite obvious: you aim at top positions: manager/chief/ecc.. you must be able to read invoices, report, local newspapers!!!
2) Their placement record at 3 months from graduation is very good:96%.. but it's a little tricky. They start on Jan, they finish in Dec and they keep the 3 months limit
in June.... why? because they consider the first 3 months after the end as a period in which people rest, have holiday, relax ..... :-) Actually I would search for a job..
3) I don't like the way they manage schoolarships... they award schoolarships just few days before the mba starts! They are clear on this: you must consider such money like a
bonus...... don't count on it. This is not so good for people who needs an help. On the other side they are offer, via ING, a loan covering the full tuituon costs (they consider
your actual salary.. mine is around 40000e and it's enough to fulfil the request)
4) The avg gmat is quite low but they are clear: if you plan to work in consulting you must have a score higher than 700
5) It's quite strange that most of the complaints about RSM come from indians.. now i wonder why someone leaves India to study in Holland: they don't know
the language, they are limited by VISA, the country doesn't offer much opportunities (being small) ecc.. why not to go to UK or USA where language and acceptance are lower barrier? Take a bet on a regional mba is risky.. so
it's quite silly to complain later..... I planned to do my mba in Holland essentially because I love the country but I know the risk (that's why I would consider it only
with a good schoolarship)
6) RSM costs 39000e... like Cranfield, Cass, Copenhagen, Tiasnimbas.. far less (considered the living costs) than SDA, IE, LSB, HEC, ESSEC, ecc and a little
more than Lyon, Vlerick, ecc Actually you have what you pay for even if Cranfield, at such sum seems a bargain.
7) about avg salary.. RSM performs better than Warwick (just an example). More consider that avg age in RSM is quite low and so also salary tends to be smaller.
By the way..take LBS placement report... people who work in corporate have a avg salary of 72000 and a median of 68000 min. 40000 max 190000.
Now..after 2y in London would you be happy to gain between 40000-50000pound? how long to cover the 2y costs?

As usual, Duncan was the voice of reason and he always had the bigger picture. This is to be honest not a very new thing and unless you graduate from a very specialized degree from a very well-ranked school and had a very structured career dont expect to change career like peers in US.

The MBA in Europe is a general management degree teaching you basics and essentials of things and if you think that before MBA you worked for 3 - 5 years in XXX and now you take few courses in investment banking you can suddenly get a 100 grand per year.

At least in the good times, we could all swim naked but then the tides are out we show our true colours.

What are the top business schools in Europe? Obviously they are LBS and INSEAD and they really teach you a lot, the curriculum is really tough and they have the best teachers and the best students. Dont fool yourself into paying to get in. People who say that dont know what they talk about and they dont know anything about INSEAD or world-class MBA programmes, they may still study at night classes at local colleges paying 100 quid for an excel modelling course.

Vlerick, Lyon or RSM are country school ie if you are from that country and you have a Master degree from those people generally give you the interview ticket. If you take your degree to India and China, most people will puzzle.

The market for those schools of course are pre-experience Master degrees and general MBA

To those who have earned MBA from Europe, I do hope that we all will make it and I really feel sorry for those who dont but have you looked at the curriculum and what they teach? Are you not aware of the facts that most courses are undergraduate level? People get paid for what they do and at the end of the day they pay for the knowledge you accumulated reading Corporate Finance fundamentals and not 3 letter MBA in your CV or the school that you went to

Good tough luck

Hi everybody!

Since my last post in 2010 on this forum, I've finished my MBA at RSM and landed a job in consulting.
Now that I'm in a corporate environment dominated by MBAs I feel can make some more objective comments based on what I've seen.
1) CDC - This is the single aspect of RSM's MBA that people really fight about. I never expected them to get me a job (I can take care of myself, thank you very much), so I did not frown when I discovered that they were not going to do so. I was a little disappointed when I realised that they could not get the companies I wanted to our MBA Career Fair (e.g. L'Oreal, LVMH, Diageo), but in the end I managed to bring a few of them myself through the student clubs.
My personal verdict on RSM's CDC is that it should be more forceful at the beginning of the programme in making it clear that if you want to switch industry after the MBA, you need to work very hard for it from Day 1. The real issue, as somebody pointed out in the previous post, is that the school does take in a lot of students underestimating their expectations, leaving the CDC to clean up the mess.
2) Education - The "in class" content of the programme is generally excellent. RSM's MBA programme puts a lot of emphasis on soft skills, which is something that most MBAs fail on and that causes huge distrust among non-MBAs.
I personally found the strategy electives offered by the programme to have been invaluable life lessons. Of course, sitting in the classrooms I saw many people who were not as excited as me, but perhaps it is because all they wanted was the 3 letters on their CV that could help them land an interview with Goldman Sachs or McKinsey. Perhaps some did get what they wanted, but many did not.
3) Student Quality - First of all we need to define "quality", which means different things to different people. The "Economist" assumes that "Quality = High GMAT", because it is a term that can be easily measured. The problem with this approach is that standardized tests don't tell you whether somebody is - excuse my colourful language - an "asshole" to work with or a sociopath. I personally think that there was a sizeable minority of the class who cared solely about their CV and did not really contribute much. However, there were also some very talented people whom I believe will do great things PRECISELY because they cared about others and not just themselves.
4) Corporate Relations - Every major employer of MBAs visited the Erasmus Campus during the course of my programme. However, only about 10% of them came explicitly to visit us MBAs. This is normal for almost every MBA programme that has a lot of diversity but not that many students (i.e. less than 300). Apparently this year the situation has improved, but I believe it will get worse again if Europe enters a new recession.
5) Salaries - It ultimately boils down to the country and the industry you want to work in. In Holland, bankers' bonuses have been capped by government, and this has an impact on any ranking. However, I know for a fact that some of my classmates who landed consulting jobs in Holland are paid handsomely and have much more humane working hours than say, my classmates who landed similar jobs in Asia and London.
5) Alumni - The RSM alumni network is as vast as it is untapped. A lot is being done to improve that (I'm an active alumnus myself), but it will be years before it becomes "internalized" by the whole organization.
Overall, I can say that RSM is a great place to do an MBA if you:
- Know from Day 1 what it is that you want to do, and have the will to get there on your own
- Want to learn to get the job done with an extremely diverse student team (i.e. managing ambiguity)
- Want to understand human beings and "make meaning"
- Enjoy collaborative environments in thought-provoking classses

If your main objective is to switch to finance/consulting but don't have the background, you should apply to a top-ranked programme like LBS or INSEAD, with very high standards and where you are well-guided from the beginning of the programme by CDC in that direction.

Yesterday I had an interesting talk with an italian guy (2011 class) who is going to graduate. Here some points:
1) Courses are really tough.. during the first 8 months you are expected to work/study from 9.00 to 24.00 all the days long. Around 50% of people broke up with girlfriend/wife ecc... even the one who moved there together :-)
2) Some teachers sucks (marketing, operations) but generally the level of courses is very high. Lots of case studies, assignments, ecc. Exams are not so difficult
3) Career center is quite strong: till 3y ago there was 1 person.. now they are in 5. This guy told me that several people found projects/internships thanks to them.
About job... with a 600GMAT and an oil and gas background he is waiting some answers but he has already had interviews with McKinsey and waiting for Boston CG. Since he wants to come back to Italy his choices are quite limited but he is very confident. He did a project for Philips with other 3 guys... all those are now having an internship there with high chances to land a job(he refused)
4) Rotterdam is quite expensive but the Dutch national government will give you back 40% of what you spend for renting a flat.
5) Several students went for an exchange. Generally they reported similar level of quality of teaching and students (only Hec appeared having more quality).. but here he warned me that after 8 months past in an institution.. well you might overstimate it :-)
6) he was definetely happy for his choice (even if he is now checking day and night his mobile waiting for a job).
7) I asked him about Tiasnimbas.. well he reported to know someone studying there but actually just a few know the school
Hope it helps!


--- I ve edited the exchange part... it was a long conversation and got a little confused due to traffic. IMD and Insead were mentionned as top institutes whose career centers are likely to be less important since the strong name of schools (this is his opinion).

Very useful feedback. Rotterdam is actually inexpensive compared to the rest of Northern Europe' cities. I am sure that neither Insead nor IMD have exchange programmes with RSM. Insead exchanges only with Wharton, surely, and IMD not at all.

yeah, as usual you are right :-)
http://www.rsm.nl/home/international/rsm_students_going_abroad/mba_exchange_programme

I ll ask him again... ok that I was driving my car during the call but normally I don't have problems to understand italian :-)

about inxpensive... he told me that it's a little less expensive than Milan (which is far more expensive than average italian cities)

Just seen the RSM's italian student Linkedin profile... he has found a job as ICQA Manager at Amazon! :-)

A very interesting discussion with a number of vanilla replies. Some replies talk about how one should exactly know what he or she wants post MBA and some talk about RSM's regional only presence. These points hold true for many MBA schools.

In US if an international student goes to a Midwest school he or she might not be able to find a "dream" job post MBA simply because industries there don't entertain foreign students. And later they have fun finding a job in coasts without many connections. Indirectly such schools become regional even in US.

I hear B schools alumni talk about their career goals when they enrolled for an MBA program. Some of them say that they had hardly any clue about what they wanted to do post MBA, and struggled through the program while trying to carve out one concentration after another during program. They somehow landed good jobs but haven't been able to do much since then. A good point to note here is that an MBA can get you your first job but after that you are on your own. Job performance will matter more than your B schools credentials. Since those guys were not very sure of their career goals MBA did not work out well for them. There could be other factors as well. But unclear career path seems the most prominent one. Amazingly enough some of them went to top 10 US B schools.

Thank you for your patience. I would like to know following about RSM program -

1. Does program help international students assimilate into a foreign environment, which will allow them to develop network with industry?
2. Is there any way other than exchange programs to form connections outside The Netherlands using program's resources?

These questions relate to CDC. Apart from helping students with CVs, and presentations they can also explain a thing or two about Dutch practices. My point is networking approach varies from country to country largely due to cultural differences. In US you can be direct but not in India.

3. How good the school is in technology streams? I know nothing beats California and to some extent Bangalore location wise. I want to understand the worth of RSM when it comes to technology related careers.

Thank you,
Nalin

Hello Nalin,
I found your analysis regarding the "clarity of objectives" post-MBA to be spot on. In response to your questions I would say:

1) RSM helps you "assimilate" in Holland since the school has good contacts with key local employers (e.g. Philips, Shell, KPN etc.). Through the school it is also possible to enroll on a Dutch language course which certainly helps you integrate. Last but not least, you can tap the alumni network, which although underutilized abroad, is very strong in the Netherlands.
Overall, I would say that there are plenty of opportunities to assimilate with the locals, but it is up to you to make use of them.

2) I'm not quite sure as to what you mean by "connections outside the Netherlands using the programme's resources". Most of my class went to the MBAT games held annually at HEC Paris, and participated in comptitions held abroad by other business schools (e.g. venture capitalist, case and pharma competitions). Once again, if you want to embark onto such endeavours you are more than welcome to, but there are no press-gangs.

3) Local Dutch culture is discussed at the beginning of the CDC's programme, though I'm reliably informed that reading "The Undutchables" and perhaps spending time hanging around with locals (e.g. by playing sports) will help you much more than any seminar on dutch culture.

4) As far as technology streams are concerned, I can't give you an answer since it was not an area that I was particularly intersted in and therefore did not follow.

- Let the buyer beware. If you want an MBA that assures you a job, study in the US or India. In Europe you just have to make yourself visible, and do the work.

Don't open the ear about reputation here. Do it by yourself.
Ask class profile and look who will study with you before
you decide. You can hardly find previous workers with outstanding history and background such as fortune 500.
Paying more than $60K, you will see not sophisticated school and housing facilities in this countryside.
Curriculum looks no difference from top tiers.
Class quality low. brand name weak. low salary after mba.
these are the problem on it.

The Fortune 500 ranks the largest US companies. Since the Netherlands is not in the US, is the number of Fortune 500 alumni in a European MBA programme really a good measurement?

RSM is one of the top 30 MBA programmes in the world; students are earning more $50,000 on the way in and $104,000 on the way out. That really doesn't suggest that it's a very weak programme with very weak students.

Certainly, it's not Stanford or London Business School, but the salary is quite average for a top 100 programme in Europe, and not too different from Imperial College or SDA Bocconi.

I do appreciate that it's very frustrating that RSM, like other European schools, are unable to place Indian students without local language skills into European jobs with the sort of seniority they might get in India. But that's just not a surprise, and it doesn't mean that RSM is any worse (or better) than it look in the rankings.Take a look at http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/rsm-erasmus-university/global-mba-rankings-2012#global-mba-rankings-2012

..means well known companies.
Though it is in EU, student gathered worldwidely.
All right, let me change. no matter what the company is located, they need name. If this is world 30, then go to world 10 because world 30 is not that high level or valuable.
class profile will say something to you. they are truely normal.
MBA is getting unpopular. top10 might be also too many.
$50K is shameful salary as post. which means if you are not rich, you cannot take mba. would love to say it is not state univ mba in US and it is not cambridge, warwick. you go too far!

After lots of research i found wheather its RSM or any other french and Geman top school, it is very hard to find a job for Non-EU student. There is a little hope if you are fluent in respective language.

UK, US - i think everybody knows

so i conclude if you have limited funds dont go to europe

RSM is a great school with top-professors. However, having seen the student body, I have to tell you that I agree with some of the previous posts that they are pretty average.

The school is not what you can call top-notch, but therefore they are somewhere in the average range. I would say, if you like northern Europe, there might be other options in the area that might be more suitable for you. Like (a) London Business School (b) Vlerick Leuven (very cheap) (c) Mannheim Business School

Niels
MBA Q&A