Need help with school selection in Europe


ansgh
Im an Indian woman with 10 years of work experience in IT sector including 5 years as a Co-Founder of an IT company. I m applying to full time MBA in few colleges in France, Germany and Netherlands.

France - Essec, Emlyon
Germany - ESMT, EBS, Cologne, Gisma,
Netherlands - TIAS

I applied only after initial assessment by the adcoms of each college.

I have searched and found out that France is the most difficult one to get a job post MBA for indians, germany comes the next and netherlands seems the better option. I have talked to a few alumni's of all colleges and they made me more confused.

Since here i have seen such honest and real suggestions on MBA so please suggest being an indian female with IT background which college should i choose out of these? considering i want to stay in Europe after my MBA atleast for a few years.

waiting for your suggestions.

TIA

[Edited by ansgh on May 23, 2017]

Im an Indian woman with 10 years of work experience in IT sector including 5 years as a Co-Founder of an IT company. I m applying to full time MBA in few colleges in France, Germany and Netherlands.

France - Essec, Emlyon
Germany - ESMT, EBS, Cologne, Gisma,
Netherlands - TIAS

I applied only after initial assessment by the adcoms of each college.

I have searched and found out that France is the most difficult one to get a job post MBA for indians, germany comes the next and netherlands seems the better option. I have talked to a few alumni's of all colleges and they made me more confused.

Since here i have seen such honest and real suggestions on MBA so please suggest being an indian female with IT background which college should i choose out of these? considering i want to stay in Europe after my MBA atleast for a few years.

waiting for your suggestions.

TIA
quote
Duncan
I suggest you pick whichever of these languages most interests you, and then take a masters taught in that language after one or two semesters of full-time study at an inexpensive state university in the region where you want to live. I don't see the point of studying in France in English if you don't speak French. Even if you spoke German, I would not consider GISMA: those for-profit schools are just too risky.
I suggest you pick whichever of these languages most interests you, and then take a masters taught in that language after one or two semesters of full-time study at an inexpensive state university in the region where you want to live. I don't see the point of studying in France in English if you don't speak French. Even if you spoke German, I would not consider GISMA: those for-profit schools are just too risky.
quote
ansgh
I suggest you pick whichever of these languages most interests you, and then take a masters taught in that language after one or two semesters of full-time study at an inexpensive state university in the region where you want to live. I don't see the point of studying in France in English if you don't speak French. Even if you spoke German, I would not consider GISMA: those for-profit schools are just too risky.


Thank you for replying back!

I want to do an MBA and state universities in doesn't have Mba's that are triple accredited and won't value if I decide to come back.

What exactly i want to know is job conditions in these countries for a international non eu mba student who learns language by then. I have chosen colleges as per rankings and accreditation so that they are valued even outside Europe. As far as local language is concerned i'll have to learn that anyways if im planning to stay in Europe.
For me getting a job post mba is what concerns me most so in that concern which country is better - France Germany or Netherlands ??
[quote]I suggest you pick whichever of these languages most interests you, and then take a masters taught in that language after one or two semesters of full-time study at an inexpensive state university in the region where you want to live. I don't see the point of studying in France in English if you don't speak French. Even if you spoke German, I would not consider GISMA: those for-profit schools are just too risky. [/quote]

Thank you for replying back!

I want to do an MBA and state universities in doesn't have Mba's that are triple accredited and won't value if I decide to come back.

What exactly i want to know is job conditions in these countries for a international non eu mba student who learns language by then. I have chosen colleges as per rankings and accreditation so that they are valued even outside Europe. As far as local language is concerned i'll have to learn that anyways if im planning to stay in Europe.
For me getting a job post mba is what concerns me most so in that concern which country is better - France Germany or Netherlands ??

quote
Duncan
There are dozens of triple-crown schools in state universities, in the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, in the Nordic region. I'm not suggesting that you should limit your masters options to state universities, however. I am saying that you should learn the language. Having studied at business schools in France and Germany, my experience is that Indian MBA students arriving hoping to learn the language but then spend a year working and studying in English. At the end of the year, they can order food but certainly not work.

So, that gives you the choice: learn the language before the masters, or graduate and then learn the language while looking for work. In the first scenario, you are able to raise your value to employers and even study in the language. That will increase your business vocabulary even further. Or you wait until you garduate to learn the language.... but surely then you will be axious about finding work and will take a discount to take a junior role that does not require the language.

If you learn the language before you start the MBA, then you will have broadly similar outcomes to the other students. If you don't, then I just don't see anyone who develops professional fluency while taking a demanding course in English.
There are dozens of triple-crown schools in state universities, in the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, in the Nordic region. I'm not suggesting that you should limit your masters options to state universities, however. I am saying that you should learn the language. Having studied at business schools in France and Germany, my experience is that Indian MBA students arriving hoping to learn the language but then spend a year working and studying in English. At the end of the year, they can order food but certainly not work.

So, that gives you the choice: learn the language before the masters, or graduate and then learn the language while looking for work. In the first scenario, you are able to raise your value to employers and even study in the language. That will increase your business vocabulary even further. Or you wait until you garduate to learn the language.... but surely then you will be axious about finding work and will take a discount to take a junior role that does not require the language.

If you learn the language before you start the MBA, then you will have broadly similar outcomes to the other students. If you don't, then I just don't see anyone who develops professional fluency while taking a demanding course in English.
quote
Duncan
So, I think the difference between the countries matter less than your motivation to learn the language. Certainly you'll find a higher percentage of English-speaking opportunities in the Netherlands but these might not be managerial roles. Personally, I'd pick German since it's open to helping foreigners integrate while the Netherlands is pretty happy to have an expat knowledge workers that never really get residency rights.
So, I think the difference between the countries matter less than your motivation to learn the language. Certainly you'll find a higher percentage of English-speaking opportunities in the Netherlands but these might not be managerial roles. Personally, I'd pick German since it's open to helping foreigners integrate while the Netherlands is pretty happy to have an expat knowledge workers that never really get residency rights.
quote
ansgh
So, I think the difference between the countries matter less than your motivation to learn the language. Certainly you'll find a higher percentage of English-speaking opportunities in the Netherlands but these might not be managerial roles. Personally, I'd pick German since it's open to helping foreigners integrate while the Netherlands is pretty happy to have an expat knowledge workers that never really get residency rights.


Yes you are right!! I should concentrate on language more. Yes i have heard the same for Germany but it's also said that Germany's mba is still not wide known - is that true?? Also iwas not aware about holland not giving residency rights easily:-/

EBS college's mim courses are good so should i move ahead with MBA there m?? Or else any state run university whose mba counts really well?

I also got a reply from strathclyde few mins back stating i pass their pre assessment test and that i should consider applying but im not sure what are the job prospects there for an Indian considering all that brexit issue now.
[quote]So, I think the difference between the countries matter less than your motivation to learn the language. Certainly you'll find a higher percentage of English-speaking opportunities in the Netherlands but these might not be managerial roles. Personally, I'd pick German since it's open to helping foreigners integrate while the Netherlands is pretty happy to have an expat knowledge workers that never really get residency rights. [/quote]

Yes you are right!! I should concentrate on language more. Yes i have heard the same for Germany but it's also said that Germany's mba is still not wide known - is that true?? Also iwas not aware about holland not giving residency rights easily:-/

EBS college's mim courses are good so should i move ahead with MBA there m?? Or else any state run university whose mba counts really well?

I also got a reply from strathclyde few mins back stating i pass their pre assessment test and that i should consider applying but im not sure what are the job prospects there for an Indian considering all that brexit issue now.


quote
Duncan
I don't mean that residency is hard to get in the Netherlands than in Germany. I doubt that there is a big difference. I mean that Dutch people don't place foreigners under the same pressure to learn Dutch and, as a result, there are lot of foreign knowledge workers who will find it very hard to move into managerial roles because the lack language skills.

The MBA is pretty new in Germany, but the accredited MBAs in Germany are so small that there is no shortage of demand for graduates with good language skills.

However, I don't see how a degree from EBS will help you find work if you don't speak excellent German before enrolling. I think you will be more likely to find work in Germany with a masters taught in German from a good state university (a traditional university, rather than a university of applied science) than from the EBS MiM , speaking poor German.

Strathclyde is a superior option in every way, unless you already speak French, Dutch or German.
I don't mean that residency is hard to get in the Netherlands than in Germany. I doubt that there is a big difference. I mean that Dutch people don't place foreigners under the same pressure to learn Dutch and, as a result, there are lot of foreign knowledge workers who will find it very hard to move into managerial roles because the lack language skills.

The MBA is pretty new in Germany, but the accredited MBAs in Germany are so small that there is no shortage of demand for graduates with good language skills.

However, I don't see how a degree from EBS will help you find work if you don't speak excellent German before enrolling. I think you will be more likely to find work in Germany with a masters taught in German from a good state university (a traditional university, rather than a university of applied science) than from the EBS MiM , speaking poor German.

Strathclyde is a superior option in every way, unless you already speak French, Dutch or German.
quote
ansgh
I don't mean that residency is hard to get in the Netherlands than in Germany. I doubt that there is a big difference. I mean that Dutch people don't place foreigners under the same pressure to learn Dutch and, as a result, there are lot of foreign knowledge workers who will find it very hard to move into managerial roles because the lack language skills.

The MBA is pretty new in Germany, but the accredited MBAs in Germany are so small that there is no shortage of demand for graduates with good language skills.

However, I don't see how a degree from EBS will help you find work if you don't speak excellent German before enrolling. I think you will be more likely to find work in Germany with a masters taught in German from a good state university (a traditional university, rather than a university of applied science) than from the EBS MiM , speaking poor German.

Strathclyde is a superior option in every way, unless you already speak French, Dutch or German.


Thanks for prompt reply!!
Really appreciate your help here.

I understand your point about language and no I don't speak any of these language as of now so i guess i need to rethink about this all. Chances are bright only if i speak the language fluently.

Strathclyde is nice i know but will i be able to stay there after my mba? I mean do they provide job search visa options too? And what about job placements? My major concern is to stay and work there after my mba.

I'm sorry for asking so many questions but I couldn't find such honest and reliable information anywhere else and i want to thank you with all my heart for answering all my questions so patiently!!
[quote]I don't mean that residency is hard to get in the Netherlands than in Germany. I doubt that there is a big difference. I mean that Dutch people don't place foreigners under the same pressure to learn Dutch and, as a result, there are lot of foreign knowledge workers who will find it very hard to move into managerial roles because the lack language skills.

The MBA is pretty new in Germany, but the accredited MBAs in Germany are so small that there is no shortage of demand for graduates with good language skills.

However, I don't see how a degree from EBS will help you find work if you don't speak excellent German before enrolling. I think you will be more likely to find work in Germany with a masters taught in German from a good state university (a traditional university, rather than a university of applied science) than from the EBS MiM , speaking poor German.

Strathclyde is a superior option in every way, unless you already speak French, Dutch or German. [/quote]

Thanks for prompt reply!!
Really appreciate your help here.

I understand your point about language and no I don't speak any of these language as of now so i guess i need to rethink about this all. Chances are bright only if i speak the language fluently.

Strathclyde is nice i know but will i be able to stay there after my mba? I mean do they provide job search visa options too? And what about job placements? My major concern is to stay and work there after my mba.

I'm sorry for asking so many questions but I couldn't find such honest and reliable information anywhere else and i want to thank you with all my heart for answering all my questions so patiently!!

quote
Duncan
Read the articles I linked to on my reply to your question about EMLyon.

Safest bet: learn German and take an MSc in finance in the German language.

All the data shows that the Strathclyde school is in the top third of the top 100 MBAs when it comes to international mobility and in tje top ten when it comes to employment. If you spoke German, Mannheim would be better. Since you don't just use the FT rankings: http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-ranking-2017 Add in the column for employment and for international mobility. You'll see the top UK schools are muchbetter.
Read the articles I linked to on my reply to your question about EMLyon.

Safest bet: learn German and take an MSc in finance in the German language.

All the data shows that the Strathclyde school is in the top third of the top 100 MBAs when it comes to international mobility and in tje top ten when it comes to employment. If you spoke German, Mannheim would be better. Since you don't just use the FT rankings: http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-ranking-2017 Add in the column for employment and for international mobility. You'll see the top UK schools are muchbetter.
quote
ansgh
Read the articles I linked to on my reply to your question about EMLyon.

Safest bet: learn German and take an MSc in finance in the German language.

All the data shows that the Strathclyde school is in the top third of the top 100 MBAs when it comes to international mobility and in tje top ten when it comes to employment. If you spoke German, Mannheim would be better. Since you don't just use the FT rankings: http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-ranking-2017 Add in the column for employment and for international mobility. You'll see the top UK schools are muchbetter.


Msc in finance that's a 2 year course but am I eligible for it as i have a bachelor of tech degree. And may i know why specifically msc in finance and not an mba from a reputed college?
[quote]Read the articles I linked to on my reply to your question about EMLyon.

Safest bet: learn German and take an MSc in finance in the German language.

All the data shows that the Strathclyde school is in the top third of the top 100 MBAs when it comes to international mobility and in tje top ten when it comes to employment. If you spoke German, Mannheim would be better. Since you don't just use the FT rankings: http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-ranking-2017 Add in the column for employment and for international mobility. You'll see the top UK schools are muchbetter. [/quote]

Msc in finance that's a 2 year course but am I eligible for it as i have a bachelor of tech degree. And may i know why specifically msc in finance and not an mba from a reputed college?

quote
Duncan
The MSc in finance is available in one or two years. Use mastersportal.eu or daad.de.

I recommend the MSc because there are no good, full-time, MBAs taught in German. If you want to work in a Germany-speaking country, I recommend that you should take a master taught in German to maximise your cultural and linguistic skill.

[Edited by Duncan on May 21, 2017]

The MSc in finance is available in one or two years. Use mastersportal.eu or daad.de.

I recommend the MSc because there are no good, full-time, MBAs taught in German. If you want to work in a Germany-speaking country, I recommend that you should take a master taught in German to maximise your cultural and linguistic skill.
quote
ansgh
The MSc in finance is available in one or two years. Use mastersportal.eu or daad.de.

I recommend the MSc because there are no good, full-time, MBAs taught in German. If you want to work in a Germany-speaking country, I recommend that you should take a master taught in German to maximise your cultural and linguistic skill.


Thanks for the suggestions duncan but i have already applied to schools and have even got admits for a few so can't change the degree now.
[quote]The MSc in finance is available in one or two years. Use mastersportal.eu or daad.de.

I recommend the MSc because there are no good, full-time, MBAs taught in German. If you want to work in a Germany-speaking country, I recommend that you should take a master taught in German to maximise your cultural and linguistic skill. [/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions duncan but i have already applied to schools and have even got admits for a few so can't change the degree now.
quote
Duncan
Why is that? If you have been admitted to degrees that will not help you meet your goal very well why are you unable to consider better options?
Why is that? If you have been admitted to degrees that will not help you meet your goal very well why are you unable to consider better options?
quote
ansgh
Why is that? If you have been admitted to degrees that will not help you meet your goal very well why are you unable to consider better options?


Well because my age and experience is more suited to an MBA rather than a MSc and going with an MBA is much better for me if i come back to India after a few years as here msc is not even comparable to an MBA. I don't have to think only about getting a job there in netherlands or Germany but i also have to think about what will be more suitable in my home country if i come back here.
Also i want to have my own company in few years and in that sense an MBA is a better option any day.
Hope i was able to convey my thoughts.

[Edited by ansgh on May 23, 2017]

[quote]Why is that? If you have been admitted to degrees that will not help you meet your goal very well why are you unable to consider better options?[/quote]

Well because my age and experience is more suited to an MBA rather than a MSc and going with an MBA is much better for me if i come back to India after a few years as here msc is not even comparable to an MBA. I don't have to think only about getting a job there in netherlands or Germany but i also have to think about what will be more suitable in my home country if i come back here.
Also i want to have my own company in few years and in that sense an MBA is a better option any day.
Hope i was able to convey my thoughts.
quote
laurie
Considered the MBA from Bocconi? Might be better for you, since it now has a footprint in India that will bring networking opportunities, alumni in the country, etc. In any case, with the schools you're looking at as well as with Bocconi, language, as discussed previously, will most likely be an issue if you want to work in mainland Europe at all after the MBA.
Considered the MBA from Bocconi? Might be better for you, since it now has a footprint in India that will bring networking opportunities, alumni in the country, etc. In any case, with the schools you're looking at as well as with Bocconi, language, as discussed previously, will most likely be an issue if you want to work in mainland Europe at all after the MBA.
quote
Ayon
In my opinion, post MBA employability would depend upon following
1) Work permit: Do you have the right to work in that country? How much would it require your company to spend on work rights?

2) Language: Does your post MBA career goal require you to have fluency of local language and knowledge of culture? Is your target more front end jobs like Management Consulting or Marketing? Or is it back end jobs maybe like a SAP implementation Consultant?

3) Skill Gap: This is possibly the most important. What skills are required for your post MBA career? What skills you current possess? The difference between that is your skill gap. Can your MBA help you bridge that skill gap?

You'll need to show this to a recruiter, and convince him/her to do a visa sponsorship. After all, from a companies point of view. Why should they hire you over your equally qualified classmates who can speak the language and doesn't need costly paperwork.

4) Brand name: A brand name will help you somewhat to convince the recruiter to be a bit lax if you cannot bridge the skill gap. It won't help you land a FP&A Manager for Shell or Brand Manager for L'Oreal if your past experience (and hence your skill set) has been QA Testing.
Additionally, brand names are somewhat localized. While ESSEC is great school (I had an admit), I believe something like 3 out of 7 Indians could find jobs in EU. Rest had to come back. Search on LinkedIn, you'll find those people.

5) School's point of view: Of course the admission team will encourage you to apply. That's their job. Understand unlike India, not many people in US/UK/EU are hell bent spending money on education. Schools also have bills to pay, they welcome International students with deep pockets. International students also provide higher GMAT scores which is a factor in various rankings. Just like any team in an organization. Adcoms also get a target e.g. for 2019 we need to see 10% rise in our applications and a target avg. GMAT of maybe 630.
Schools doesn't care much what if it's your dream to stay in Europe or not. I mean it's almost everyone's dream is to stay in Europe. Why else would Syrians flee into Germany and not Saudi that's next door.

France is most difficult: Of course, they protect their language and culture. You don't know either. There is a sizable population of french speaking Africans/Arabs that live in France legally/illegally they haven't been accepted or integrated yet, and that's by design. Unless you have some skills that are high in demand and no one else have it, why would anyone hire you? (this is more applicable for career switchers)

I think your research is preliminary and superficial. Spend more time on your research. Dig those people out form LinkedIn / FB wherever who had a similar profile like yours and attended your target schools. Talk to them.

Good luck
In my opinion, post MBA employability would depend upon following
1) Work permit: Do you have the right to work in that country? How much would it require your company to spend on work rights?

2) Language: Does your post MBA career goal require you to have fluency of local language and knowledge of culture? Is your target more front end jobs like Management Consulting or Marketing? Or is it back end jobs maybe like a SAP implementation Consultant?

3) Skill Gap: This is possibly the most important. What skills are required for your post MBA career? What skills you current possess? The difference between that is your skill gap. Can your MBA help you bridge that skill gap?

You'll need to show this to a recruiter, and convince him/her to do a visa sponsorship. After all, from a companies point of view. Why should they hire you over your equally qualified classmates who can speak the language and doesn't need costly paperwork.

4) Brand name: A brand name will help you somewhat to convince the recruiter to be a bit lax if you cannot bridge the skill gap. It won't help you land a FP&A Manager for Shell or Brand Manager for L'Oreal if your past experience (and hence your skill set) has been QA Testing.
Additionally, brand names are somewhat localized. While ESSEC is great school (I had an admit), I believe something like 3 out of 7 Indians could find jobs in EU. Rest had to come back. Search on LinkedIn, you'll find those people.

5) School's point of view: Of course the admission team will encourage you to apply. That's their job. Understand unlike India, not many people in US/UK/EU are hell bent spending money on education. Schools also have bills to pay, they welcome International students with deep pockets. International students also provide higher GMAT scores which is a factor in various rankings. Just like any team in an organization. Adcoms also get a target e.g. for 2019 we need to see 10% rise in our applications and a target avg. GMAT of maybe 630.
Schools doesn't care much what if it's your dream to stay in Europe or not. I mean it's almost everyone's dream is to stay in Europe. Why else would Syrians flee into Germany and not Saudi that's next door.

France is most difficult: Of course, they protect their language and culture. You don't know either. There is a sizable population of french speaking Africans/Arabs that live in France legally/illegally they haven't been accepted or integrated yet, and that's by design. Unless you have some skills that are high in demand and no one else have it, why would anyone hire you? (this is more applicable for career switchers)

I think your research is preliminary and superficial. Spend more time on your research. Dig those people out form LinkedIn / FB wherever who had a similar profile like yours and attended your target schools. Talk to them.

Good luck
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