This regarding some of your posts about NYC business schools:

What's happening in terms of the perception of local MBA programs is that relative comparisons are becoming more difficult, and perceived differences between certain schools are beginning to narrow. For example, Columbia's edge over NYU is slowly eroding in part, due to the fact that Stern is further entrenching itself, as a leader in finance and investment valuation. And on a national scale, its finance curriculum is comparable to those of Chicago and Wharton. The same thing is happening between Fordham and St. John's: The Tobin College of Business is moving sharply into "Risk, Financial Engineering, and Investment Management" through its School of Risk Management. With the exception of leveraging its Economics Dept., Fordham does not have the infrastructure to currently compete with St. John's in the more quantitative disciplines related to finance and the strategic management of risk. One of Fordham's perceived strengths is in media, which St. John's cannot presently match in terms of geographical and industry-connected resources. If you compare faculty backgrounds, you'll see a few Fordham finance Profs. with MBAs from St. John's, but not the equivalent in reverse. Back then, Fordham was clearly the 3rd strongest program behind Columbia and NYU. This is not the standard perception now, as more applicants are comparing St. John's to Fordham and vice versa.

I would still rank St. John's as the third strongest MBA program behind Columbia and NYU Stern (you can search Stern's web site to see one reason why I make this remark), even if only for the reason that they made more improvements to its program, since 2000 than its regionally ranked competitors. Also, considering the high trade rates between the two schools (St. John's and Fordham); people are more interested in the best fit for them, concerning each school's relative strengths.

Fordham GBA Program was in St. John's current position back in the early 1990s. Fordham was looking for regional and national recognition. So Fordham made several improvements and now Fordham is listed among the top in the region and the country. It takes years and cash to do it and I wish SJU good luck. HOWEVER, the only problem with declaring SJU above Fordham is that the overall caliber of Fordham accumulated over the last two decades have been already measured and recognized by several third party organizations including Forbes (9th ranked nationally in part-time programs!!), Wall Steet Journal (14th Regionally ranked), Business Week, etc, etc. In the same articles SJU is nowhere to be found, PERIOD. That is the sad truth for SJU. That SJU is overhauling the program is good to know, but that it's not enough. To have a School of Risk Management is great, but is NOT one yardstick that distiguishes one school, is a combination of factors and I read a few good ones but again, it's not enough. Fordham draws from its' excellent Undergraduate Business Program (ranked in the top 50 in the nation), from the Law School (ranked in the top 25 nationally), from the overall quality of the University (ranked 70th un US News Report), from the 2006 entering class with 600 in the GMAT, from the caliber of students accepted in tthe Deming's Scholars Program, in the full-time MS in Accounting/Taxation, in the Media Program, from its Chinese MBA connection at the top China's GBA School. From it's Manhattan location, from the ton of International executives living in Manhattan (not in Queens!).

Currently Greater NYC area students have several MBA options. If they have the time, resources and grades then Columbia and NYU are the first two options. Make sure you really need the school ticket because the loans are awfulo. However, if these students choose a PT Program then NYU and Fordham are the way to go. Fordham has already achieved the reputation to secure its graduates high salaries and excellent career opportunities. St Johns, PACE, Baruch, Hofstra are all good local and nice regional schools but "nationally ranked" consistently in NYC are: Columbia> NYU> Fordham. Cornell is upstate NYS, a different animal.

Pls visit:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

Here you will see Fordham ranked 70th in the USA and SJU, well....let's better move on. Remember, one program does not make an institution. That's why overall Fordham is a superior university.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/08/16/best-business-schools-list-cz_05mba_land.html

Go to Best Part-time programs, Fordham is 9th. Second only to NYU in New York State. Columbia & Cornell have no part-time program. Among the schools listed are: Chicago, UCLA, NYU, Northwestern & Michigan. Fordham is ranked above hundreds of schools, including of course SJU.

Do you think recruiters are reading these studies from WSJ, Forbes, BW? You bet!!!, in fact they contribute to many of them. Thus, it means that YOUR career chances and future are brighter if you graduate from a higher-ranked school. In fact, the difference over a 30 yr career can exceed 1-2 million dollars. No amount of elegant rethoric is going to change the perceptions of 100s of recruiters. Top-ranked = More $$$. Thats' why the Ivy Leaguers still command stratospheric salaries.

Again, good luck to SJU. It's a long road to national recognition but it's worth it. Make sure you guys at SJU get involved, donate to the school and demand change when necessary.

Again: Columbia>NYU>Fordham

The End

Fordham has both full time and part time. Your grades and scores match pefectly with Fordham's student profile for 2006. They are: GPA 3.15 and 600 GMAT for the full time program and 585 part-time. Make sure you get strong references and help with the application essays and you should have a great chance.

You will have no problems with all the other 2nd tier schools: Baruch, PACE, Hofstra and St. John's. Fordham's MBA has better regional and national reputation than all these schools and it's a better institution overall; thus, your degree will have higher value.

Columbia...sorry, forget it. NYU is a long shot, you may want to re-take the GMAT after paying for intensive GMAT coaching. If you boost your score to 650 or more then you will have a decent chance.

Good Luck

No disrespect or anything, but the problem with your analysis is that it omits the fact that media ranking information cannot replace real world events that have already occurred. At the end of the day, bschools are judged by the quality of their graduates. Also, I don't think you're qualified to tell STJ students, alum, and other constituents how to interact with the school: The extra $10 million increase in the bschool's endowment (since Tobin took over) places the school on the right track toward their $40 million capital campaign. Your lengthy response is only composed of highly emotional personal opinions about my evidence and prior media ranking information about Fordham. My assertions are based on real proven facts about St. John's.

Don't talk to me about reputation and rankings...Fordham has a new MQSF (Master of Science in Quantitative Finance) program, which is uniquely good and well positioned (as their other MS programs), but it is not competitive against a university's business school that owns an entire School of Risk Management, which is arguably one of the best in the country, as asserted by the actuarial and finance communities. Sorry, but St. John's is a lot stronger in Finance than Fordham, whereas Fordham is stronger in Media.

Again, your argument would have improved credibility if you accurately admitted that you don't have much knowledge about St. John's. Face facts: Fordham, Baruch, and Pace are ranked in US News P/T primarily because their campuses are in Manhattan. You can reference the 1998 article in Crain's Business to verify this. In the same article, it was opined that St. John's compares favorably to any of the above three, given a similar advantage. Also it stated back then that the GMAT averages for the four schools were in a similar high 550-575+ range. Hopefully, by this point you have figured out why they pursued the Manhattan campus. Fordham competes with St. John's for the same applicants, as evidenced by the high trade rates between the two universities. Fordham has a superior national reputation? I don't think so. Take a look at what this poster had to say:

--------------------
From: portb71

I am glad we are on the same page because you seem pretty well informed. I am extremely wary of this guy (SHREK123, KESTRELS, etc). Many of his handles have been deleted because of his creepy fascination with bashing some Canadian school.

St John's as far as I am concerned is every bit as good as Fordham and probably better known. That said you make the point I have made: to lump Fordham with Columbia is bound to raise suspicions of SARBROWN. Fordham is a good school...but it caters to a slightly different market. Ignore this Shrek character. Real head case. I appreciate the insight into SJU and agree they ought to do more to get the word out about the quality program they have.
--------------------

By the way, the above poster went to Georgetown. Having a bunch of MS and MBA programs and naming them internationally doesn't necessarily bestow an international reputation. You need to have something more tangible to show for such acclaim. Fordham's strategic partner is Thunderbird, while St. John's strategic partner is the London School of Economics. Fordham's entire bschool is in Manhattan, while St. John's Tobin College of Business spans from Manhattan all the way to Rome, Italy. Plus St. John's has a much higher percentage of international students in its business school than Fordham. Again, media rankings don't necessarily fill the coffers; you need to have a highly funded endowment campaign in place. Don't believe me? Take a look at what this Columbia Business School grad had to say:

--------------------
From: CBSGrad

On one of Columbia's career websites SJU advertised for a fundraising type of position. This is at least some evidence of some of G3XL's assertions. At least SJU is trying to improve its endowment by trying to hire experienced people, unlike Fordham which is relying almost solely on tuition. There's virtually no academic institution in this world that can do that and expect to survive. That plan is a sure recipe for extinction.
--------------------

Before you talk about donations, remember that the Tobin College has more money than the business school you're pushing. Don't believe me? Who do you think bought the School of Risk Management? Regarding recruiting, the same firm's recruit at both bschools for similar positions, and when work experience in quality and quantity is equal among applicants, the starting salaries are roughly the same. Columbia and NYU grads would get higher compensation packages within the same situation. So, if all you have is media ranking information and personal opinions, then you don't have much to go on. I, at least manage with the force of facts.

Hey guys, very interesting discussion!
Thanks for the comments about the online MBA. So if I understand right, an employer will not even be able to detect from my diploma that it is an online MBA?
I see your point about discipline - I imagine it quite hard for me to stick to my studies all alone at home, and especially with a regular workload.. not to forget that it's not some evening course but a challenging high level education throughout the whole year.
It will be more my cup of tea to physically attend a school and interact with students and professors.
Summing up your statements, obviously I can forget Columbia, as I thought, and NYU too, I guess. But I know a lot better which other NY bschools could be for me. And the online option as a rescue solution if everything fails? Sounds good to me!

You may want to take a look at this for a moment:

http://whitman.syr.edu/prospective/imba/index.asp

I would review it as a potential candidate program, for future consideration. The program that best fits your personal and professional objectives is the one you want to attend. Not any particular MBA program in general will necessarily meet your needs, so you'll have to be a bit selective, in terms of figuring out what options are best for your development long-term.

RexD is correct in that the degree conferred in a real online MBA program is essentially the same as one in a traditional classroom-based program. Therefore, the critical difference becomes the institution selected. You only want to consider reputable AACSB accredited schools (since you're staying in the U.S.) with real university infrastructures and verifiable academic histories. Businesses and even some non-profit institutions of higher learning that operate as diploma mills are to be avoided at all costs: You'll want to take extra caution here, since more of these crop up often in the online space.

You have quite a few options open to you. The NYC metropolitan area has the highest concentration of bschools per sq. ft. in the country, so don't rush the application process. It's better to take your time, plan well, and execute your decision proficiently.

Hi, I've had a look at this imba link you advise. It sounds very interesting!
But it's kind of an executive MBA, right? For me this is a bit early in my career plan - I'd have to wait to have the necessary number of years of professional experience...

Actually, I was suggesting some options for Hiroko, regarding programs that are highly flexible in NYS. It's good that you bring up the topic of experience. I agree that it's very important to have unique experiences and events that can illustrate valuable lessons for peers and vice versa for yourself. In NYC-based (as well as other programs outside NYC) MBA programs, the critical issue these days for adcomms is selecting full-time working admits, who have highly integrative experiences that contribute value to not only the rest of the cohort, but also to the institution long-term. So what's happening in part is that many graduate programs are being readjusted to the lifestyle characteristics of mid-career professionals seeking advancement. If you don't have the average 5 or so years of work experience (let's say you have 3), then depending on your situation, you may want to invest in obtaining a little more quality work experience, which will better help you to select your MBA program of choice, in due time.

Hey RexD, thanks for these comments, I highly appreciate!
About the option to do an online MBA, I wanted to ask you how you think this would be perceived by employers. Does an online MBA not look a bit less serious? What do you think?
It's definitely more practical and easier to combine with a job. But I never considered because I was afraid that it's not worth so much on the job market.

Thanks G3XL.
And thanks jcohen - you do have a special thing with Florida, don't you?

No disrespect or anything, but the problem with your analysis is that it omits the fact that media ranking information cannot replace real world events that have already occurred. At the end of the day, bschools are judged by the quality of their graduates. Also, I don't think you're qualified to tell STJ students, alum, and other constituents how to interact with the school: The extra $10 million increase in the bschool's endowment (since Tobin took over) places the school on the right track toward their $40 million capital campaign. Your lengthy response is only composed of highly emotional personal opinions about my evidence and prior media ranking information about Fordham. My assertions are based on real proven facts about St. John's.

Don't talk to me about reputation and rankings...Fordham has a new MQSF (Master of Science in Quantitative Finance) program, which is uniquely good and well positioned (as their other MS programs), but it is not competitive against a university's business school that owns an entire School of Risk Management, which is arguably one of the best in the country, as asserted by the actuarial and finance communities. Sorry, but St. John's is a lot stronger in Finance than Fordham, whereas Fordham is stronger in Media.

Again, your argument would have improved credibility if you accurately admitted that you don't have much knowledge about St. John's. Face facts: Fordham, Baruch, and Pace are ranked in US News P/T primarily because their campuses are in Manhattan. You can reference the 1998 article in Crain's Business to verify this. In the same article, it was opined that St. John's compares favorably to any of the above three, given a similar advantage. Also it stated back then that the GMAT averages for the four schools were in a similar high 550-575+ range. Hopefully, by this point you have figured out why they pursued the Manhattan campus. Fordham competes with St. John's for the same applicants, as evidenced by the high trade rates between the two universities. Fordham has a superior national reputation? I don't think so. Take a look at what this poster had to say:

--------------------
From: portb71

I am glad we are on the same page because you seem pretty well informed. I am extremely wary of this guy (SHREK123, KESTRELS, etc). Many of his handles have been deleted because of his creepy fascination with bashing some Canadian school.

St John's as far as I am concerned is every bit as good as Fordham and probably better known. That said you make the point I have made: to lump Fordham with Columbia is bound to raise suspicions of SARBROWN. Fordham is a good school...but it caters to a slightly different market. Ignore this Shrek character. Real head case. I appreciate the insight into SJU and agree they ought to do more to get the word out about the quality program they have.
--------------------

By the way, the above poster went to Georgetown. Having a bunch of MS and MBA programs and naming them internationally doesn't necessarily bestow an international reputation. You need to have something more tangible to show for such acclaim. Fordham's strategic partner is Thunderbird, while St. John's strategic partner is the London School of Economics. Fordham's entire bschool is in Manhattan, while St. John's Tobin College of Business spans from Manhattan all the way to Rome, Italy. Plus St. John's has a much higher percentage of international students in its business school than Fordham. Again, media rankings don't necessarily fill the coffers; you need to have a highly funded endowment campaign in place. Don't believe me? Take a look at what this Columbia Business School grad had to say:

--------------------
From: CBSGrad

On one of Columbia's career websites SJU advertised for a fundraising type of position. This is at least some evidence of some of G3XL's assertions. At least SJU is trying to improve its endowment by trying to hire experienced people, unlike Fordham which is relying almost solely on tuition. There's virtually no academic institution in this world that can do that and expect to survive. That plan is a sure recipe for extinction.
--------------------

Before you talk about donations, remember that the Tobin College has more money than the business school you're pushing. Don't believe me? Who do you think bought the School of Risk Management? Regarding recruiting, the same firm's recruit at both bschools for similar positions, and when work experience in quality and quantity is equal among applicants, the starting salaries are roughly the same. Columbia and NYU grads would get higher compensation packages within the same situation. So, if all you have is media ranking information and personal opinions, then you don't have much to go on. I, at least manage with the force of facts.

Mar 28, 2007
Fordham University?s College of Business Administration (CBA) has climbed 14 places in BusinessWeek magazine?s annual ranking of undergraduate programs to No. 34 nationally. In addition to CBA, the Fordham Graduate School of Business Administration (GBA) has been highly rated over the years. GBA?s full-time MBA Program was ranked 14th in the Wall Street Journal regional rankings, and U.S. News & World Report rated the part-time MBA Program in the top 20 nationally.
http://www.fordham.edu/Campus_Resources/Public_Affairs/topstories_841.asp

To lewprmba,


Your statements about how programs receive money from various donor sources and the selectivity of top firms is a given; telling me what is already known does not address anything I've said. Stating that Fordham worked hard over many years to get its recognition, again does not address any (that's right "any") of my points: We already know this. Your assertions regarding media rankings are not relevant to the factual position of Tobin's infrastructure, which is really a separate issue, and actually the position from which I make my assertions. Do not tell me that relevant facts about bschool expenditure and resource allocation do not count, since they're not heavily measured in media rankings. Outside of the basic tenets of non-profit operations, Bschools, as I assume you know are run through their own specific operations functions (i.e., to attract top students and faculty, increase endowments, get media recognition, scale up the corporate recruiting base, etc.), which do in many cases include the benefits of media coverage in rankings, when attained. This I don't argue against, but the contention that alternate factual information can't be weighed against media ranking information is erroneous. You said that my argument was missing a key point. The first sentence of your response is proof positive that you totally misunderstood my position to begin with. Did you say, "Don't make this a Fordham vs. STJ issue"? Let me remind you that it was you who initially posted to me, not the other way around. Again, you are not the expert you implicitly claim you are on STJ, therefore you don't have the ability to offer accurate information on its strategic and tactical positions. I do. Remember, I didn't say media ranking information had no relevance. I said that there are other facts from which to judge schools on in addition to media ranking information when used properly. Before you tell me what a school you know nothing about should concentrate on, you should concentrate on knowing the difference between the two above points. Regarding luck, likewise.

I think this "Fordham vs. St. John's" discussion does not really help future MBAs, nor does it help to find out whether Mr. Tobin could be serving lunch to Mr. Zarb. I can't comment much on the quality of these schools. From my perspective as an international student (from Europe) Fordham - after CBS and NYU - would be the third choice in terms of reputation. However, an MBA from St. John's or Hofstra will also look good on your CV and these schools are known to many employers here as well. According to businessweek in 2005 Fordham had 24% international students (2 % from Western Europe, 16% from Asia), St. John's 31% international students (4 % from Western Europe, 13% from Asia), and Hofstra Zarb 25% (2% from Western Europe, 18% from Asia). So there is not much difference here. CBS has 31% internationals (10% from Western Europe), NYU 33% (3% from Western Europe).

BTW: Did you know that Fordham was actually founded as "St. John's College" in the 19th century? The name was changed to Fordham in 1905 (despite the original name of the school, Fordham has never had any connection with St. John's University as far as I know).

Actually, I knew that Fordham was founded as the original St. John's College, as I also knew that St. John's University was originally founded in Brooklyn, stemming from the Vincentian movement in France. These historical facts are quite interesting. I understand your point, and do respect the fact that everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion, as am I. I'm sure that you've read my references to the statements of other posters about the two schools. Those references are fairly accurate in terms of the accepted perception among those vying for nationally ranked programs, and keep in mind that these people went to top business schools.

Actually, Fordham is a bit "informally" connected to St. John's in terms of academics, regarding administrative and faculty appointments. Take a close look. The Dean of St. John's School of Law has a JD from the top ranked Fordham Law School. The university's provost is a Fordham PhD. One of their top management Profs. in the area of business ethics and strategy is again, a Fordham PhD (Psychology). The Dean of Fordham's School of Education has undergrad and graduate degrees from St. John's. The Finance Dept. of Fordham's business school has an unusually high concentration of St. John's M.B.A. Finance grads as Adjunct Profs.

In terms of academic structure and culture, St. John's is far more similar to Fordham than it is to Hofstra: The person who originally made this statement has an M.B.A. and a PhD from NYU Stern. This person, who also has an international background quipped that the only thing the schools on long island have in common is their location. Therefore, location cannot be construed to mean other things regarding academic infrastructure. You have to look at each, as a separate issue. Even reputation has to be viewed in a multi-dimensional context. I would even venture to say that St. John's has comparatively more similarities to a much smaller catholic university named Seton Hall. Again, I have to make another reminder that this is not a "this-versus-that-school' thread (re-read my posts). This discussion is about using facts to back up arguments and contentions. I'm sure graduates from all these solid schools will go places and do some amazing things. But the fact is that catholic universities are known for trading up with each other in different areas, due in large part to collective cultural and in many cases academic synergies.

The BusinessWeek stats you quote on St. John's are highly disputable; even the current ones. I believe that U.S. News's prior and current stats are much more accurate (i.e., 40% of the current M.B.A. populace at St. John's is international). Your comments are well taken, but remember your statement, "I can't comment much on the quality of these schools." Therefore, at least I can claim to have provided some useful information based on the quality of at least one school in particular using factual information (reread Hiroko's post to me and RexD on this thread), not just perception-based opinion. Again, your points are well taken.

Can someone tell me, what is a better prep course "KAPLAN" or "Princeton Review". They cost about the same. Money is not an issue, I want to be well prepared. Thanks

I think this "Fordham vs. St. John's" discussion does not really help future MBAs

Can someone tell me, what is a better prep course "KAPLAN" or "Princeton Review". They cost about the same. Money is not an issue, I want to be well prepared. Thanks

Just look at SAT stats of incoming feshman at St Johns, that will tell you where that school is going.

Hofstra is also a better school, and has far more potential than St Johns. I would say they are #4

St Johns, Pace, Baruch behind those 4.

Here is "MBA" program topic around NYC... SAT isn't .... I guess Hofstra's topic compared with St. John's finished long ago...