Ouch! Placement plummets at HSG


Duncan

Reputation is really aligned to where alumni are. I note that IE is ranked well above HSG in the employability ranking published by the Times Higher Education: https://emerging.fr/#/geurs2020

Reputation is really aligned to where alumni are. I note that IE is ranked well above HSG in the employability ranking published by the Times Higher Education: https://emerging.fr/#/geurs2020
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Inactive User

Reputation is really aligned to where alumni are. I note that IE is ranked well above HSG in the employability ranking published by the Times Higher Education: https://emerging.fr/#/geurs2020

NUS above Yale. University of Sydney above university of Chicago. You can't be serious while posting these rankings. I'm in Australia and even uni of Melbourne grads don't consider Aussie unis to be better than the unis that they are ranked above.
Anyway I went to a uni that is a huge feeder to IE. IE takes in students with 500 on the GMAT and asks them to sit for their own test in order to not miss out on the tuition fee. The International placements are dismal. 

[quote]Reputation is really aligned to where alumni are. I note that IE is ranked well above HSG in the employability ranking published by the Times Higher Education: https://emerging.fr/#/geurs2020 [/quote]<br>NUS above Yale. University of Sydney above university of Chicago. You can't be serious while posting these rankings. I'm in Australia and even uni of Melbourne grads don't consider Aussie unis to be better than the unis that they are ranked above.<br>Anyway I went to a uni that is a huge feeder to IE. IE takes in students with 500 on the GMAT and asks them to sit for their own test in order to not miss out on the tuition fee. The International placements are dismal.&nbsp;
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Duncan

It's a ten year study with 9000 managers, sponsored by the most respected higher education publication. If you have a better indication of reputation with employers, let us know.b

It's a ten year study with 9000 managers, sponsored by the most respected higher education publication. If you have a better indication of reputation with employers, let us know.b
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mba hipste...

It is kind of a wonky ranking. I think the methodology is solid but just points to the wider issue here, which is that geography tends to play an outsize role in these sort of comparisons, which mean they often come down to apples vs. oranges in many cases...

It is kind of a wonky ranking. I think the methodology is solid but just points to the wider issue here, which is that geography tends to play an outsize role in these sort of comparisons, which mean they often come down to apples vs. oranges in many cases...
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So here's my take
1) This is not an independent survey, and after my experience i do not trust the data provided by university. 
2) What does "Job seeking graduates" mean, the rest just did not want to work (after being fooled by use of creative language, i would suggest ask the university for some real stats before reaching any conclusions).
3) Even if the data is real, i would like to see how the question was put forth to the students and how the conclusions were drawn(because most times they are just misrepresented). 

So here's my take<br>1) This is not an independent survey, and after my experience i do not trust the data provided by university.&nbsp;<br>2) What does "Job seeking graduates" mean, the rest just did not want to work (after being fooled by use of creative language, i would suggest ask the university for some real stats before reaching any conclusions).<br>3) Even if the data is real, i would like to see how the question was put forth to the students and how the conclusions were drawn(because most times they are just misrepresented).&nbsp;<br><br>
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StuartHE

1] There is an independent survey at https://emerging.fr/#/geurs2020 Who is better placed than the university to gather these data? 
2] A job seeker is someone who is seeking employment i.e. not someone who is returning to their employer; starting their own business or continuing into a PhD. 
3] Considering the data in the study exactly how can the way you pose the question gather different responses on salary and whether or. not they are in work? 

You just cannot be this lazy and hope to make a valuable contribution to this conversation. 

1] There is an independent survey at https://emerging.fr/#/geurs2020 Who is better placed than the university to gather these data?&nbsp;<br>2] A job seeker is someone who is seeking employment i.e. not someone who is returning to their employer; starting their own business or continuing into a PhD.&nbsp;<br>3] Considering the data in the study exactly how can the way you pose the question gather different responses on salary and whether or. not they are in work?&nbsp;<br><br>You just cannot be this lazy and hope to make a valuable contribution to this conversation.&nbsp;
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Lazy?, please explain how is this Lazy, and for your kind information, valuable contribution is trying to get to the bottom of any data and its analysis and drawn conclusions, suggesting people to implore their thinking, getting overly emotional and attacking others for their views just shows that you are too deeply attached to leave a non biased opinion.

Lazy?, please explain how is this Lazy, and for your kind information, valuable contribution is trying to get to the bottom of any data and its analysis and drawn conclusions, suggesting people to implore their thinking, getting overly emotional and attacking others for their views just shows that you are too deeply attached to leave a non biased opinion.
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StuartHE

You are trying to create uncertainty and doubt about these data, without suggesting any better source of data or any specific reason why you are skeptical about HSG's data collection. You are not, for example, comparing these data against others. If HSG was introducing some bias, then why would it release data showing such a sharp fall in outcomes? You don't point to any data or give any motives. That's lazy. As for bias, I am simply pointing people to data rather than innuendo. 



PS Sorry that makes you feel so defensive. Do better. 

[Edited by StuartHE on Jul 12, 2021]

You are trying to create uncertainty and doubt about these data, without suggesting any better source of data or any specific reason why you are skeptical about HSG's data collection. You are not, for example, comparing these data against others. If HSG was introducing some bias, then why would it release data showing such a sharp fall in outcomes? You don't point to any data or give any motives. That's lazy. As for bias, I am simply pointing people to data rather than innuendo.&nbsp;<br><br><br><br>PS Sorry that makes you feel so defensive. Do better.&nbsp;
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Andy776

Hi, I completely disagree with the remark saying that Switzerland is twice more expensive to live in than Spain. It all depends on how you live. I reaffirm that HSG will land you in my opinion much better opportunities. But again, this is my opinion and everyone can have one. All the best!

[Edited by Andy776 on Jul 13, 2021]

Hi, I completely disagree with the remark saying that Switzerland is twice more expensive to live in than Spain. It all depends on how you live. I reaffirm that HSG will land you in my opinion much better opportunities. But again, this is my opinion and everyone can have one. All the best!
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I know to a person who does not know how data is manipulated  this might look straight forward, but to me their claim of 75% placement in a pandemic year is way better than most other universities are claiming, so i would really like to see some actual numbers, so for example i have heard their class strength is much lower lets take e.g. 50 say 10 were not looking for a job so that leaves 40, and 75% of this number is 30. 
This is not just about HSG, I am sure universities can do better at being transparent, they proudly represent and tag all their students in LinkedIn posts specially around admissions season, why not do the same when it comes to post MBA statistics, to me 75% placement is a really good number in a pandemic year (and to my skeptical self who has fallen for creative marketing techniques its too good to be true), there could be a more transparent way of representing data, where you clearly show 30 students placed (or even all students who have decided to take different post MBA growth opportunities) and everybody who wants to join the MBA university can see the career growth of the entire alumni(or at least of alumni that have public LinkedIn account) for themselves and decide.
In any case the data in that report is really not showing a clear picture, to be honest i would love to restore my faith in the system and be proud of my degrees, but i really do believe for that to happen, there needs to be more transparency in the way marketing teams of universities represent data and stats. 
Also if they are so proud of their placements and rankings etc. wont it just be easy to say hey look its all documented and true, go to this link and check the progress of our past MBA batch.
In my understanding creative marketing is as good as creative accounting techniques used by companies to hide their faults and losses and represent data in the way that only makes them look good. I do not believe expecting transparency and accurate data representation is in any way a technique for creating doubt, but my culture and education does teach me to respect all views, so i hope this explanation makes me look less lazy, and makes me stand up to your expectations of "Do better".    

I know to a person who does not know how data is manipulated&nbsp; this might look straight forward, but to me their claim of 75% placement in a pandemic year is way better than most other universities are claiming, so i would really like to see some actual numbers, so for example i have heard their class strength is much lower lets take e.g. 50 say 10 were not looking for a job so that leaves 40, and 75% of this number is 30.&nbsp;<br>This is not just about HSG, I am sure universities can do better at being transparent, they proudly represent and tag all their students in LinkedIn posts specially around admissions season, why not do the same when it comes to post MBA statistics, to me 75% placement is a really good number in a pandemic year (and to my skeptical self who has fallen for creative marketing techniques its too good to be true), there could be a more transparent way of representing data, where you clearly show 30 students placed (or even all students who have decided to take different post MBA growth opportunities) and everybody who wants to join the MBA university can see the career growth of the entire alumni(or at least of alumni that have public LinkedIn account) for themselves and decide.<br>In any case the data in that report is really not showing a clear picture, to be honest i would love to restore my faith in the system and be proud of my degrees, but i really do believe for that to happen, there needs to be more transparency in the way marketing teams of universities represent data and stats.&nbsp;<br>Also if they are so proud of their placements and rankings etc. wont it just be easy to say hey look its all documented and true, go to this link and check the progress of our past MBA batch.<br>In my understanding creative marketing is as good as creative accounting techniques used by companies to hide their faults and losses and represent data in the way that only makes them look good. I do not believe expecting transparency and accurate data representation is in any way a technique for creating doubt, but my culture and education does teach me to respect all views, so i hope this explanation makes me look less lazy, and makes me stand up to your expectations of "Do better".&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;
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StuartHE

Hi, I completely disagree with the remark saying that Switzerland is twice more expensive to live in than Spain. It all depends on how you live.


But.... that wasn't a remark. That was a statement supported by a link to the world's leading cost of living comparison resource. Of course, you can spend more money in Spain than in Switzerland -- but people who do that would have a very better standard of living in Madrid than they would with the same amount of money in Zurich. Just click on the link. 

[quote]Hi, I completely disagree with the remark saying that Switzerland is twice more expensive to live in than Spain. It all depends on how you live. [/quote]<br><br>But.... that wasn't a remark. That was a statement supported by a link to the world's leading cost of living comparison resource. Of course, you can spend more money in Spain than in Switzerland -- but people who do that would have a very better standard of living in Madrid than they would with the same amount of money in Zurich. Just click on the link.&nbsp;
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StuartHE

In any case the data in that report is really not showing a clear picture, to be honest i would love to restore my faith in the system and be proud of my degrees, but i really do believe for that to happen, there needs to be more transparency in the way marketing teams of universities represent data and stats.  


How about the salary data in the FT ranking? Those are audited by KPMG, and those data over the last 15 years have moved more or less in step with the HSG employment report. 

Again, you are not able to point to any better data. 

You also make the mistaken and easily refutable claim that the fall at HSG is better than at other top business schools. That is not at all the case. Most top schools reported a smaller decline.  

[quote]In any case the data in that report is really not showing a clear picture, to be honest i would love to restore my faith in the system and be proud of my degrees, but i really do believe for that to happen, there needs to be more transparency in the way marketing teams of universities represent data and stats.&nbsp;&nbsp;[/quote]<br><br>How about the salary data in the FT ranking? Those are audited by KPMG, and those data over the last 15 years have moved more or less in step with the HSG employment report.&nbsp;<br><br>Again, you are not able to point to any better data.&nbsp;<br><br>You also make the mistaken and easily refutable claim that the fall at HSG is better than at other top business schools. That is not at all the case. Most top schools reported a smaller decline.&nbsp;&nbsp;
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How about the salary data in the FT ranking? Those are audited by KPMG, and those data over the last 15 years have moved more or less in step with the HSG employment report. - After the collapse of Lehman brothers and the part so called independent auditors(E&Y) played in it, i highly doubt how much we can trust auditors or any third party in general. Lehman is just one example, but there are multiple cases where independent auditors have not really held up their name and reputation.

Again, you are not able to point to any better data.  - My entire argument has been that there is no trusted data source, and its really easy to create a trusted data source by actually showing us the data. e.g. entire questionnaire, exact numbers of how many were placed instead of a percentage that can vary upon interpretation, links to LinkedIn profile of Alumni or at least a number which states (e.g. 10 got placed in Switzerland in banking sector, 5 got placed in Germany in Automotive sector, 5 remained unemployed etc.) it would paint such a transparent picture, there wont be a need for this argument.

You also make the mistaken and easily refutable claim that the fall at HSG is better than at other top business schools. That is not at all the case. Most top schools reported a smaller decline.  - I disagree i have individually visited most university and comparison sites but i respect your view, I would love to change my view if you have any links for comparison that i could not find, please share them, it would be enlightening to everyone 

How about the salary data in the FT ranking? Those are audited by KPMG, and those data over the last 15 years have moved more or less in step with the HSG employment report. - After the collapse of Lehman brothers and the part so called independent auditors(E&amp;Y) played in it, i highly doubt how much we can trust auditors or any third party in general. Lehman is just one example, but there are multiple cases where independent auditors have not really held up their name and reputation.<br><br>Again, you are not able to point to any better data.&nbsp; - My entire argument has been that there is no trusted data source, and its really easy to create a trusted data source by actually showing us the data. e.g. entire questionnaire, exact numbers of how many were placed instead of a percentage that can vary upon interpretation, links to LinkedIn profile of Alumni or at least a number which states (e.g. 10 got placed in Switzerland in banking sector, 5 got placed in Germany in Automotive sector, 5 remained unemployed etc.) it would paint such a transparent picture, there wont be a need for this argument.<br><br>You also make the mistaken and easily refutable claim that the fall at HSG is better than at other top business schools. That is not at all the case. Most top schools reported a smaller decline.&nbsp; - I disagree i have individually visited most university and comparison sites but i respect your view, I would love to change my view if you have any links for comparison that i could not find, please share them, it would be enlightening to everyone&nbsp;
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Duncan

I'm with Stuart on this. You don't trust the schools or any third party. The idea that non-profit business schools are engaging in fraud in the way that Lehman Brothers did misses the point that business schools do get caught (see the Fox MBA crisis, for example) and that the auditing of a salary survey is trivial compared to auditing Lehman. 

Obviously, alumni are not going to respond if their responses are individually available to the general public and connect to their LinkedIn profile. The idea of such an arrangement is not "easy", it's *fantasy*.

I know that (to take the example of my own MBA programme, at LBS) placement fell by as little as 2% at some schools. there's a useful article at https://poetsandquants.com/2021/01/28/london-business-school-2020-mba-employment-report/?pq-category=business-school-news&pq-category-2=international-business-school-news  

I'm with Stuart on this. You don't trust the schools or any third party. The idea that non-profit business schools are engaging in fraud in the way that Lehman Brothers did misses the point that business schools do get caught (see the Fox MBA crisis, for example) and that the auditing of a salary survey is trivial compared to auditing Lehman.&nbsp;<br><br>Obviously, alumni are not going to respond if their responses are individually available to the general public and connect to their LinkedIn profile. The idea of such an arrangement is not "easy", it's *fantasy*.<br><br>I know that (to take the example of my own MBA programme, at LBS) placement fell by as little as 2% at some schools. there's a useful article at https://poetsandquants.com/2021/01/28/london-business-school-2020-mba-employment-report/?pq-category=business-school-news&amp;pq-category-2=international-business-school-news&nbsp;&nbsp;
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Andy776

I agree with Wer234 on this one:

"Anyway I went to a uni that is a huge feeder to IE. IE takes in students with 500 on the GMAT and asks them to sit for their own test in order to not miss out on the tuition fee. The International placements are dismal."

Trust me with a Swiss degree, it will open you a lot of doors worldwide (way more than a Spanish one for sure).

I agree with Wer234 on this one:<br><br>"Anyway I went to a uni that is a huge feeder to IE. IE takes in students with 500 on the GMAT and asks them to sit for their own test in order to not miss out on the tuition fee. The International placements are dismal."<br><br>Trust me with a Swiss degree, it will open you a lot of doors worldwide (way more than a Spanish one for sure).
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Duncan

Perhaps you are thinking about Spanish-language degrees? The average GMAT in the full-time MBA at IE is higher than at HSG, and HSG has a much lower range on the its GMAT: https://poetsandquants.com/2018/10/31/average-gmat-scores-at-the-top-20-european-business-schools/

The FT ranks IE 28th in the world's 100 best for international mobility. Not as good as HSG, but not terrible: https://rankings.ft.com/rankings/2859 

Perhaps you are thinking about Spanish-language degrees? The average GMAT in the full-time MBA at IE is higher than at HSG, and HSG has a much lower range on the its GMAT: https://poetsandquants.com/2018/10/31/average-gmat-scores-at-the-top-20-european-business-schools/<br><br>The FT ranks IE 28th in the world's 100 best for international mobility. Not as good as HSG, but not terrible: https://rankings.ft.com/rankings/2859&nbsp;
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Andy776

Hi Duncan, in my opinion it is ridiculous to rank MBA's based on their GMAT average. Plus should I remind you that IE had one of the biggest scandals in their GMAT records and student satisfaction (they got excluded from the FT ranking for that). 
Even if they can have a higher ranking, the Swiss economy is going a million times better than the Spanish. So you would advise someone to go to IE to then move abroad due to the economy and job prospects. And even in that, you see that HSG has a higher ranking in international mobility not to mention the amount of international companies in Switzerland (Nestle, Roche, Credit Suisse and other financial institutions) versus Spain (Inditex or Banco Santander at the most). 
For me the discussion is simple and should not take long to answer. 

[Edited by Andy776 on Jul 13, 2021]

Hi Duncan, in my opinion it is ridiculous to rank MBA's based on their GMAT average.&nbsp;Plus should I remind you that IE had one of the biggest scandals in their GMAT records and student satisfaction (they got excluded from the FT ranking for that).&nbsp;<br>Even if they can have a higher ranking, the Swiss economy is going a million times better than the Spanish. So you would advise someone to go to IE to then move abroad due to the economy and job prospects. And even in that, you see that HSG has a higher ranking in international mobility not to mention the amount of international companies in Switzerland (Nestle, Roche, Credit Suisse and other financial institutions) versus Spain (Inditex or Banco Santander at the most).&nbsp;<br>For me the discussion is simple and should not take long to answer.&nbsp;
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StuartHE

You can either agree with Wer234 that it really matters whether a school has a higher or lower GMAT, or you can say it doesn't matter. You can't do both. 
To be honest, it looks like statements are very important to you when they favour HSG but then suddenly irrelevant if they are pointed out to be mistaken. 
HSG and IE are very different schools, and the important point is that someone who is choosing between them has not though clearly enough about their career goals. If you want the roles IE places into, HSG makes no sense. And vice versa. 

You can either agree with Wer234 that it really matters whether a school has a higher or lower GMAT, or you can say it doesn't matter. You can't do both.&nbsp;<br><div>To be honest, it looks like statements are very important to you when they favour HSG but then suddenly irrelevant if they are pointed out to be mistaken.&nbsp;</div><br>HSG and IE are very different schools, and the important point is that someone who is choosing between them has not though clearly enough about their career goals. If you want the roles IE places into, HSG makes no sense. And vice versa.&nbsp;<div>
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donho199

Unless you want to go down the route of mba career otherwise it is very wasteful and full time mbas are closing down in dozens. Work and then do executive mba 

Unless you want to go down the route of mba career otherwise it is very wasteful and full time mbas are closing down in dozens. Work and then do executive mba&nbsp;
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mba hipste...

HSG and IE are very different schools, and the important point is that someone who is choosing between them has not though clearly enough about their career goals. If you want the roles IE places into, HSG makes no sense. And vice versa.

I couldn't agree with this more. When people ask to compare two schools in different countries, it's often like apples and oranges. 

[quote]HSG and IE are very different schools, and the important point is that someone who is choosing between them has not though clearly enough about their career goals. If you want the roles IE places into, HSG makes no sense. And vice versa. [/quote]<br>I couldn't agree with this more. When people ask to compare two schools in different countries, it's often like apples and oranges.&nbsp;<br>
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