Netherlands


HBV 2016
Hi everybody, I see a lot of discussion here about France and Germany but what about the Netherlands?

Is it a good destination for international students?

I'm considering the MBAs at RSM, Tias, Nyenrode, and Amsterdam Business School.

I would like to work in the country after graduation, if at all possible.
Hi everybody, I see a lot of discussion here about France and Germany but what about the Netherlands?

Is it a good destination for international students?

I'm considering the MBAs at RSM, Tias, Nyenrode, and Amsterdam Business School.

I would like to work in the country after graduation, if at all possible.
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Duncan
Take a look at Do you need to speak the local language? www.find-mba.com/board/34713
If you speak or learn Dutch before the MBA, I think it's a great destination. I am not sure that the UvA has good careers services, but the other schools seem to do okay.
Take a look at Do you need to speak the local language? www.find-mba.com/board/34713
If you speak or learn Dutch before the MBA, I think it's a great destination. I am not sure that the UvA has good careers services, but the other schools seem to do okay.
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Duncan
PS They do okay, but not excellently. Tias placed 75% into work within three months of gradiation; RSM does better with 80%. That puts both of them in the bottom 20% of the FT 100 on employment. Schools well below RSM in the ranking get over 90%, such as Bath, UCD, St Gallen, Mannheim and Lancaster. I think St Gallen and UCD look especially strong.
PS They do okay, but not excellently. Tias placed 75% into work within three months of gradiation; RSM does better with 80%. That puts both of them in the bottom 20% of the FT 100 on employment. Schools well below RSM in the ranking get over 90%, such as Bath, UCD, St Gallen, Mannheim and Lancaster. I think St Gallen and UCD look especially strong.
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Razors Edg...
For having such an international class, Rotterdam has really decent international mobility stats. The school's most recent career report says that a majority of those with non-European - 68 percent stayed in the Netherlands after graduation.

That said, the overall 86 percent placement rate (within 12 months) is rather low.
For having such an international class, Rotterdam has really decent international mobility stats. The school's most recent career report says that a majority of those with non-European - 68 percent stayed in the Netherlands after graduation.

That said, the overall 86 percent placement rate (within 12 months) is rather low.
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Duncan
12 months! That is terrible!!!
12 months! That is terrible!!!
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HBV 2016
No, I do not speak Dutch. It does sound like these programs are not excellent for international students. I will look at schools in the UK or many Ireland instead. Thanks for the advice.
No, I do not speak Dutch. It does sound like these programs are not excellent for international students. I will look at schools in the UK or many Ireland instead. Thanks for the advice.
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John36
No, I do not speak Dutch. It does sound like these programs are not excellent for international students. I will look at schools in the UK or many Ireland instead. Thanks for the advice.


I'm a current RSM MBA student from the states, and can tell you that you do not have to learn Dutch to do this MBA program nor live in the Netherlands. In fact, unless you take Dutch classes, it's quite difficult to learn Dutch because EVERYONE in Rotterdam speaks English.

Furthermore the employment statistic mentioned above is incorrect. Roughly 83% of students obtain employment WITHIN 3 MONTHS of graduation. see FT http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/rsm-erasmus-university

There's also this "half-truth" that you have to learn Dutch to work in the Netherlands. RSM class is over 95% international, with 97% of that don't speak Dutch, and over 60% will work in the Netherlands. Do the Math.

If you guys have any questions, I'll be happy to help out.
[quote]No, I do not speak Dutch. It does sound like these programs are not excellent for international students. I will look at schools in the UK or many Ireland instead. Thanks for the advice.[/quote]

I'm a current RSM MBA student from the states, and can tell you that you do not have to learn Dutch to do this MBA program nor live in the Netherlands. In fact, unless you take Dutch classes, it's quite difficult to learn Dutch because EVERYONE in Rotterdam speaks English.

Furthermore the employment statistic mentioned above is incorrect. Roughly 83% of students obtain employment WITHIN 3 MONTHS of graduation. see FT http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/rsm-erasmus-university

There's also this "half-truth" that you have to learn Dutch to work in the Netherlands. RSM class is over 95% international, with 97% of that don't speak Dutch, and over 60% will work in the Netherlands. Do the Math.

If you guys have any questions, I'll be happy to help out.
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Duncan
The math is that 17 percent don't have work after three months and 14,percent don't have work after 12 months. That suggests that there is a cap on how far there are opportunities without language skills.
The math is that 17 percent don't have work after three months and 14,percent don't have work after 12 months. That suggests that there is a cap on how far there are opportunities without language skills.
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John36
There are other factors, other than language, as to why people can't get jobs. This not only applies to RSM, but also to most European b-schools. Language is definitely a constraint in the EU market, which may explain why EU b-schools typically have lower employment % than its' US counterpart. On the other hand, Oxford had 82 % employment in the FT16 rankings, which suggests that there may be other factors other than language
There are other factors, other than language, as to why people can't get jobs. This not only applies to RSM, but also to most European b-schools. Language is definitely a constraint in the EU market, which may explain why EU b-schools typically have lower employment % than its' US counterpart. On the other hand, Oxford had 82 % employment in the FT16 rankings, which suggests that there may be other factors other than language
quote
Duncan
Oxford is in a different position: there's a trade-off between salary and unemployment: you can find work tomorrow at a low price; or higher work later at a high price. RSM is not there: compared to other top 100 schools, it has lower than average employment, lower career progress, lower salary increase, lower salary, and lower value. That is not the case for Oxford. So, certainly, there might be something general about the European market but it's certainly the case that schools where the students don't learn the language (CBS, EDHEC, RSM, St Gallen seem to have an additional obstacle that can be removed).

It's actually not the case that everyone in Rotterdam speaks English, by the way. 57% of Dutch people understand English well enough to follow the news on TV.
Oxford is in a different position: there's a trade-off between salary and unemployment: you can find work tomorrow at a low price; or higher work later at a high price. RSM is not there: compared to other top 100 schools, it has lower than average employment, lower career progress, lower salary increase, lower salary, and lower value. That is not the case for Oxford. So, certainly, there might be something general about the European market but it's certainly the case that schools where the students don't learn the language (CBS, EDHEC, RSM, St Gallen seem to have an additional obstacle that can be removed).

It's actually not the case that everyone in Rotterdam speaks English, by the way. 57% of Dutch people understand English well enough to follow the news on TV.
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Perensap
Being a Rotterdam resident myself, your statement about English is unfortunately not correct Duncan.

As John36 said, you´ll find that especially in the larger cities of the Netherlands everyone will be able to converse in English. Not sure what the 57% is based on, but the reality reflects the 90%-92% statistic as noted on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_in_the_Netherlands, with the 8-10% mostly located in rural areas. Especially in Rotterdam, you´ll find more people able to speak English than Dutch.
Being a Rotterdam resident myself, your statement about English is unfortunately not correct Duncan.

As John36 said, you´ll find that especially in the larger cities of the Netherlands everyone will be able to converse in English. Not sure what the 57% is based on, but the reality reflects the 90%-92% statistic as noted on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_in_the_Netherlands, with the 8-10% mostly located in rural areas. Especially in Rotterdam, you´ll find more people able to speak English than Dutch.
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strong MG
RSM..maybe 10years ago, was good...
but now the ranking is going far away down and downing.
Not very good students gets hardly find a job. RSM sues its student to get the loan shamefully.
No companies support tuition fee out of global 30th rank. No student from spon.....at all.
No future. It will be disappeared. ranked 40th. 50th...60th...sooner or later.
RSM..maybe 10years ago, was good...
but now the ranking is going far away down and downing.
Not very good students gets hardly find a job. RSM sues its student to get the loan shamefully.
No companies support tuition fee out of global 30th rank. No student from spon.....at all.
No future. It will be disappeared. ranked 40th. 50th...60th...sooner or later.
quote
strong MG
Lancaster in UK. Warwick in UK...somewhat similar or lower postioned-MBAs get high ranking.
GMAT under 600 lower score can say many things. Do you know Mckinsey, Bain like famous consulting firms request GMAT score when they are recruiting MBAs?
Wake up! Don't waste your money. RSM is not at all top MBA in EU NOW.
10 years ago maybe..was TOP 20. No development. going backward.
Lancaster in UK. Warwick in UK...somewhat similar or lower postioned-MBAs get high ranking.
GMAT under 600 lower score can say many things. Do you know Mckinsey, Bain like famous consulting firms request GMAT score when they are recruiting MBAs?
Wake up! Don't waste your money. RSM is not at all top MBA in EU NOW.
10 years ago maybe..was TOP 20. No development. going backward.
quote
RSM is a good school. My Experience is as an MBA. You do not come in the top 10 (FT 2016) in Europe without providing a high-quality program. Many of the professors work a circuit between the other elite schools, so many of the professors are the exact same ones you find in Insead, LBS, etc. We also read mostly the same books and address the same cases.

I found the quality of the content to be mainly of a very high standard. There were a couple of exceptions which were significantly below par but these were new courses/lecturers which got plenty of feedback and should improve. If you are not failing ocasionally, you are not innovating, so I am sure it is not all roses at Stanford either.

That said, Is it Harvard? no. Is it the same price as Harvard? No. Will you get the same level of support that a Harvard student gets in career coaching? No. Will you come out with a high level of business skill based on the effort you put in? Yes, if you are smart and hardworking.

Another criticism of RSM I have heard is the level of English and difficulties of working in such a diverse class. It is an INTERNATIONAL MBA. Welcome to international business. All the growth this century is coming from developing markets so if you want a piece of that, stop whining and deal with it, or just stay home and do your MBA at your local school.

Rankings also do not reflect well on the diversity of backgrounds and cultures you find at RSM. Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting article about this that explains it far better than I have space to here. (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-things)

RSM is a cheaper school than most of the others at this level in the rankings and that is a real achievement. So on a value for money basis, it is pretty damn good. It is also a 1-year program, which again reduces the cost. These are the reasons I chose it, but don't expect champagne at beer prices.

[Edited by MBAperson365 on Jan 15, 2017]

RSM is a good school. My Experience is as an MBA. You do not come in the top 10 (FT 2016) in Europe without providing a high-quality program. Many of the professors work a circuit between the other elite schools, so many of the professors are the exact same ones you find in Insead, LBS, etc. We also read mostly the same books and address the same cases.

I found the quality of the content to be mainly of a very high standard. There were a couple of exceptions which were significantly below par but these were new courses/lecturers which got plenty of feedback and should improve. If you are not failing ocasionally, you are not innovating, so I am sure it is not all roses at Stanford either.

That said, Is it Harvard? no. Is it the same price as Harvard? No. Will you get the same level of support that a Harvard student gets in career coaching? No. Will you come out with a high level of business skill based on the effort you put in? Yes, if you are smart and hardworking.

Another criticism of RSM I have heard is the level of English and difficulties of working in such a diverse class. It is an INTERNATIONAL MBA. Welcome to international business. All the growth this century is coming from developing markets so if you want a piece of that, stop whining and deal with it, or just stay home and do your MBA at your local school.

Rankings also do not reflect well on the diversity of backgrounds and cultures you find at RSM. Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting article about this that explains it far better than I have space to here. (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-things)

RSM is a cheaper school than most of the others at this level in the rankings and that is a real achievement. So on a value for money basis, it is pretty damn good. It is also a 1-year program, which again reduces the cost. These are the reasons I chose it, but don't expect champagne at beer prices.
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Razors Edg...
Any input on career services - and especially if many students in your cohort were able to land jobs in Europe after graduating?
Any input on career services - and especially if many students in your cohort were able to land jobs in Europe after graduating?
quote
RSM..maybe 10years ago, was good...
but now the ranking is going far away down and downing.
Not very good students gets hardly find a job. RSM sues its student to get the loan shamefully.
No companies support tuition fee out of global 30th rank. No student from spon.....at all.
No future. It will be disappeared. ranked 40th. 50th...60th...sooner or later.


It moved up to 31
[quote]RSM..maybe 10years ago, was good...
but now the ranking is going far away down and downing.
Not very good students gets hardly find a job. RSM sues its student to get the loan shamefully.
No companies support tuition fee out of global 30th rank. No student from spon.....at all.
No future. It will be disappeared. ranked 40th. 50th...60th...sooner or later. [/quote]

It moved up to 31
quote
Duncan
Not much of an improvement rate at the school according to the FT's audited figures: 87% in work. What caused the rise in the ranking?
Not much of an improvement rate at the school according to the FT's audited figures: 87% in work. What caused the rise in the ranking?
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mba hipste...

Rankings also do not reflect well on the diversity of backgrounds and cultures you find at RSM. Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting article about this that explains it far better than I have space to here. (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-things)

I get what Gladwell is trying to do here, and I applaud him. Ranking colleges across the country, since there's so much heterogeneity, is pretty much an impossible task.

However, we're talking about a much narrower range here - business schools offering Full-Time MBA programs - and while there still is heterogeneity, most of the rankings narrow down metrics even further and just focus on the brass tacks: salary, salary increase, etc.

I'd agree that the MBA rankings, while flawed in some ways, are still reliable indicators of relative quality. They work best when you don't focus on the actual numbers - comparing the MBAs at Stanford and Harvard is a fool's game - but instead look at the schools in terms of tiers - and especially what the rankings tell us about each school's placement in different fields, geographies, and functional areas.
[quote]
Rankings also do not reflect well on the diversity of backgrounds and cultures you find at RSM. Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting article about this that explains it far better than I have space to here. (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-things)[/quote]
I get what Gladwell is trying to do here, and I applaud him. Ranking colleges across the country, since there's so much heterogeneity, is pretty much an impossible task.

However, we're talking about a much narrower range here - business schools offering Full-Time MBA programs - and while there still is heterogeneity, most of the rankings narrow down metrics even further and just focus on the brass tacks: salary, salary increase, etc.

I'd agree that the MBA rankings, while flawed in some ways, are still reliable indicators of relative quality. They work best when you don't focus on the actual numbers - comparing the MBAs at Stanford and Harvard is a fool's game - but instead look at the schools in terms of tiers - and especially what the rankings tell us about each school's placement in different fields, geographies, and functional areas.
quote
Not much of an improvement rate at the school according to the FT's audited figures: 87% in work. What caused the rise in the ranking?
-- the salary
[quote]Not much of an improvement rate at the school according to the FT's audited figures: 87% in work. What caused the rise in the ranking?[/quote] -- the salary
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Duncan
An 11% increase. Interesting. Better students? Or a better economy in the the Netherlands?
An 11% increase. Interesting. Better students? Or a better economy in the the Netherlands?
quote

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