Dear all

I would like to know how the employment situation is like for non-EU MBA graduates in the Netherlands. I received an offer from RSM, but I am having second thoughts about accepting the offer, as I am from Asia and I heard that companies in the Netherlands do not like to employ Asians. (Yes, I spoke to an alumni and I was told that Dutch companies give preference to Europeans due to language and visa issues).

I would like to get some frank opinions on this issue. I am from Asia and applied to RSM for the diversity and quality of the MBA program, and I thought that Rotterdam, as a cosmopolitan harbour city, would be very receptive to foreigners, and employ based on qualifications, merits rather than nationality. In addition, many of the Dutch companies (ING, ABN Amro, Unilever,Phillips) are international organizations with operations in many cities, including Asian countries too. Hence, I would assume that these companies (though they are based in Dutch) are a lot more open to hiring quality candidates who could bring value to their companies, and not shortlist staff based on color of passport. Am I wrong? Could someone please shed some light on this situation?

In addition, given the diversity of the RSM MBA program, only a small percentage of each incoming class comes from the EU countries. Hence, if Dutch companies are looking for MBA grads, and limit themselves to only EU citizens, wouldn't this mean that they have a very limited pool of candidates to choose from, especially since each MBA class at RSM averages about 150 students? I am just putting my analysis out here for some discussion. Please confirm/correct my understanding.

I read that "Dutch companies can't hire non-EU citizens unless it is proven that no one in the EU could be found to perform that particular job." Is this still applicable? Or is it outdated?

Thank you for your help! I am really caught in a fix now.

I think in general employment is tough these days in Europe and North America due to the economic recession.

The Netherlands has a reputation of being very tolerant to multi-culturalism. It was also, for a long time, considered to be one of the most liberal countries in the Western world. However, a lot of this is shifting due to the recent changes in the government - the right-wing coalition. Right-wing politics often comes with a reluctancy towards multi-culturalism and migration. I know that the Netherlands has always had pretty strict regulations concerning integration - like mandatory languages courses, etc.

So, as far as the working in the Netherlands, as non-EU, I would say it's pretty important to have a grasp of the Dutch language.

However, if the program at Rotterdam has a reputation for diversity and a very high quality of education, then perhaps it will provide you with the skills you need. I think it's best to look at how much RSM will teach you about global business, rather than just the Dutch business world. That way you'll be equipped to break into your sector not only in the Netherlands but also in other European countries.

I think it's also good to ask as many non-EU alumni as possible about their experience finding work after the MBA.

I hope this helps a little.

Hi there.

Angie gives you good advice. It's a really good example to speak with RSM about this and ask them to connect you with a recent non-EU grad in the Netherlands to ask their experience. As someone who has been in and out of the Netherlands for 20 years, I can also confirm that the country is much less open to foreign talent than it was. But I still think it's more open than most other European countries. In the finance sector in particular, here's a lot of foreign talent.

It's not true that non-EU people can only be hired if that skill cannot be found in the EU. There's a much better summary here: http://www.workpermit.com/netherlands/employer_work_permits.htm - read through the linked pages from that page. It says "To qualify for a Netherlands work permit, the candidate should be a professional and have the skill set and qualifications necessary to fill a position that has already been unsuccessfully advertised in the Netherlands, or which is subject to recognised shortages. There is a legal requirement that the candidate is between 18 and 45 years of age, although it is unlikely that a candidate under the age of 23 would have the relevant experience or skills necessary to fill a professional position."

I think if you do a little more research, then you'll get a clearer idea of the rules.

That said, I think it has to be said that being a European is obviously an advantage in Europe: given the choice between two equally skilled candidates, one would choose a candidate who already had the right to work.

I like RSM a lot. I was offered a place there, and really liked the building, the students and the city. I think it's a big pity that they shortened the programme to 12 months and lost the opportunity for an internship. If I was a non-European looking to work in London, I would look hard for a school with an internship or major corporate project possibility, like London, Lisbon or HEC.

Hey Angie - thanks for the reply!

Duncan, thanks for your reply too. Did you attend the RSM MBA program? If so, how did you find it? And did you have the chance to go on an exchange program? I am keen to participate in an exchange with a US business school but I am also concerned that there could be very limited places available for the schools. Could you (or some kind-hearted RSM alumni) please comment?

I am hoping to make a career switch to banking from real estate. Not that difficult, but not that easy either. Do you think the MBA will equip me the skills which I will need to make the career transition? Or would I be better off doing a Master in Finance/investment to boost my chances of making the switch?

In addition, how international is the RSM MBA brand? Would you say that US business schools which share similar rankings as RSM are better for an international career? Like Emory Goizueta b-school, Cornell Johnson, Indiana b-sch?

I would like to hear some opinions please. Thanks everyone.

Cheers.

Hi there, no -after I won my place at RSM I got a new job with a firm that paid for me to do my MBA part-time somewhere else. I did do an exchange programme, and my impression is that every school has more places available than there is demand but, of course, there's over-demand for some schools (Berkeley, say) and under-demand for others. Because the exchange at RSM is in the final term, I'd imagine that people who are still hunting for jobs in Europe will want to stay close to the school. RSM has a huge list of partner schools: I just cannot imagine that it's able to send someone to all of them every year. The RSM team can tell you.

I do suggest you look at HEC. They have a full-term certificate programme in real estate, which you can access either from their MBA or any of their MSc programmes. http://www.hec.edu/Certificates/Real-Estate/About-the-certificate

RSM is a good school and Duncan has provided a sound analysis of the situation. I'll also suggest that you contact the advisory staff at RSM to assist you if you wish to undertake studies and work in the Netherlands.

Thanks Duncan and mattebellagio.

I have no doubts that RSM is a good school. The new Dean (George Yip) looks promising. I am also quite impressed with their staff, who are so prompt and forthcoming with their replies. The problem for me now is to convince myself that the investment in this MBA will pay off since I am going to put my life savings (yes, no joke here. All my savings) into my education. It's a huge risk / investment - this explains why I am doing all the due diligence and asking so many questions about employability etc.

Duncan - thanks for the link to the Real Estate Certificate. I saw that before. The problem I have with HEC is that the admissions staff are not too helpful - they don't respond to emails at all. For some reason, they are always on long leave.

Duncan/ Mattbellagio/angie - does consulting firms recruit at RSM? would you know about this? The RSM career center listed some consulting firms as companies that had recruited students in the past. But I also read that consulting firms do not actively recruit from RSM, and typically favor the UK b-schools more. Which is true / false? Thanks guys

Hi there,

I found this thread on another website (http://www.pagalguy.com/forum/international-indian-mba-schools-accepting/37293-rsm-erasmus-netherlands-jan2010-applications-8.html) in which Indian MBA alums discuss their difficulties in finding work in Europe. Of course you have to set things into context: these are unemployed people, so you don't hear of the employed (and the complain that one guy in Amsterdam is looking for work by bicycle can only come from someone who has not see how small that city is, how impossible it is to drive here, and how everyone has a bike). However the basic picture does not sound impossible: a large minority of graduates is finding employment though firms that come onto campus; only one in ten Indians at RSM is finding work in the Netherlands (However, all RSM MBAs are finding work somewhere, and salaries in Asia are almost certainly still higher than in the Netherlands).

Having met a number of non-EU MBA grads working in Amsterdam by generally feeling is that he answer is to learn Dutch and focus on finance. Non-EU students benefit from a specialist skill, an international employer and learning the language.

However, looking at past employment reports from RSM, it seems that
a) just under half find positions through the school and
b) the Netherlands is also where RSM grads get the lowest salary
Compare, for example 2006 (http://www.rsm.nl/portal/page/portal/home/companies/recruiting_students/post-experience_recruitment/general_information/employment_report/Employment%20Report%20-%20Class%20of%202006.pdf) and 2010 (http://www.rsm.nl/portal/page/portal/home/about/MBACareerDevelopmentCentreReport2009-2010.pdf).

In 2010 the major employers from RSM were: Johnson & Johnson, Procter & Gamble, Wavin, ING, Philips, Adidas, AT Kearney, GE, IBM, and Gehrlicher Solar. Half are European firms, and half are US firms. In 2009, it was Philips, ING, Johnson & Johnson, BCG, KPMG, Accenture, DSM, Deloitte, Roland Berger, and Hilti.

So they key lesson there is that some consulting companies do recruit from RSM, but only around 1 in 8 students is going into the consulting industry. RSM seems to be a general management MBA, feeding several industries, In contrast at INSEAD around half the class goes into consulting. If you goal is consulting, perhaps you should be looking at employment reports and finding schools where a high percentage of the students go into consulting?

Thanks Duncan. I saw several of those reports too, about how difficult it is for non-EU RSM grads to find jobs in the Netherlands. There were of course disputes from others about those claims. While I would like to be optimistic about ithe situation, I am afraid there's some truth in it. I tried asking the school about it, but they wouldn't say a thing. I feel that they should also help manage expectations of prospective/incoming students somehow, and not keep quiet about it. The silence does signal that something is not quite right !

This is worrying. While no b-schools can guarantee students a job, I would like to have some assurance of the attractiveness of the students to prospective employers in the market place. I guess this is a universal, unspoken objective of all MBA students. All the discussions (and research) somehow do not give me a good sense of how a RSM MBA can help facilitate my career progress. I dont want to end up losing my life savings only to find myself struggling to get employed !

One thing I couldn't understand is, if RSM is not as good as it is made out to be, or as the business schools report say, why how can it get the triple accreditation? And the Erasmus university is hailed as one of the top European business schools !

I see consulting as a viable option, given my background experience and the demands of a consultant. Real estate finance / investment another. Insead is a better school than RSM (or so the rankings say), but it is also almost twice as costly. I am definitely not able to afford an education at Insead. I will just settle for schools with tuition fees that I could pay for with whatever amt of savings that I have right now.

I am also very intrigued by WHU Otto Beisheim school of management's MBA. It's a relatively new program, but it has been doing quite well in recent years on European b-sch rankings. Wondering if you (or anybody else) have any idea about this school? Is there a difference in the way employers perceive b-schools in Germany and those in the Netherlands?

There is a difference between the claims and the reality described in the school's statistics. The school reports at around 49% of students get jobs through campus; there are individuals that claim it's 25%. Fundamentally, it does not matter. The reality is that no MBA guarantees employment. Students have to prepare themselves to meet the needs of employers. It should be, I think, self-evident that there's a huge difference between the need to speak the local language in finance than in consulting. Investment banks speak English. If you're consulting to business owners then you need to speak their language. McKinsey and BCG are global firms but you'll still need to learn German in Germany and Dutch in the Netherlands if you want to be an effective management consultant there.

If you want to work in consulting, therefore:
- either go into some niche in consulting where the working language can almost always be English (finance? high tech?)
- or learn the local language
- or try to study and work in a country where you already have the language.

But, quite honestly, the fact that non-Dutch speaker struggle to get work in Dutch consulting businesses is not a problem of RSM or of those businesses, but of the students unreasonable and naive expectations. RSM is every bit as it makes itself out to be, but perhaps it does not fulflll everyone's dreams.

WHU is a good school. Personally, I don't like their MBA I much prefer the structure MBAs like Manchester or the Lisbon-MIT programme which include an internship,

At WHU around 20% go into consulting: http://www.whu.edu/cms/fileadmin/redaktion/mba/FAQ/MBA_Statistics_2006-2011_updated.pdf Excellently and importantly they offer German language classes but, from experience, I can tell you than German grammar is harder to learn than Dutch (but it is more useful). On the plus side, at least in a social or shopping setting German will reply to you in Germany rather than in English (as the Dutch might).

However, if you are from outside Europe and you want to work here would it not be better to find a programme with a paid internship option?

hey, Duncan, I dig your comments! They are so thoughtful and incisive. Yes, I agree that I should either find a job in either an English speaking country (e.g. UK / US / Asia ) or work hard to learn the local language. I am just wondering if there are any schools where I can learn the dutch language in Rotterdam. The advisor at RSM said that they do offer Dutch classes as well, but that will have to wait till school starts. I did an online search but didn't manage to find anything useful. I am sure there are language schools - appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction.

Yes, our education is what we make of it. You mentioned that "RSM is every bit as it makes itself out to be"? Is this a statement affirming the quality of the MBA education at RSM? If so, that's good news for me. By the way, do you have any friends who are alumni of RSM ?If so, how are they doing now post graduation? I'd love to know of how good the RSM MBA is, especially since the true impact is visible and conclusive after 2 - 3 years in the work force.

i am also thinking of leveraging on the RSM MBA to find jobs in the US / UK. Indeed an international job search. Wondering how difficult that would be. Perhaps, if I were to go on an exchange with a US b-school that offers electives that are consistent with my concentration and future career goals, this might help? I am really looking at all possibilities. And if I do make the decision to join RSM, I will make sure it works out for me. It's now become a personal challenge to take on the world!

Oh, and to add to the earlier comment on WHU, I realized that the diversity aint that great afterall. More than half the class consists of Germans - well, this is not an issue with German nationality, but more of the relatively less outstanding diversity I would like to see in a b-school. RSM, in this respect, definitely leads WHU. Though I am sure WHU's MBA is just as exciting. And of course, the fact that Dutch are comfortable with English, as opposed to Germans, is an added bonus. Learning about international business is the key objective. The chance to pick up a new foreign language is secondary.

Anyway, hope to get more views from many others who have been following this discussion. Please feel free to dispense advice and any other comments relevant to this topic ! Thanks guys.

Yes, it's easy to find a Dutch course. The university will run basic Dutch classes and there will be public and private languages classes. However, learning another language to business fluency is a serious task, and not one which can be completed alongside a full-time MBA! To learn Dutch, you;d need to take a year. The University of Amsterdam runs a full-time Dutch programme which is around 1500 euro a year for people studying at the UvA the following year. Maybe Erasmus has a similar programme? Ask the language centre there.

Don't expect to be able to leverage the RSM MBA too much outside Europe. What is strong about RSM (12 month, international, leadership-skills based, global alumni network) just might not be valued by a US employer. A consulting company will want people who can hit the ground running as a consultant. That means an MBA will is really as much as possible like a consulting project (INSEAD http://firmsconsulting.com/2011/05/28/best-mba-to-enter-management-consulting-not-in-the-usa/ ) or MBAs with intensive project and team work, like Manchester, London etc.

But surely: To work in the US, study in the US. To work in the UK, study in the UK.

Don't expect an exchange to speed the job hunt. I went on exchange to the Tuck school at Dartmouth. I was very lucky to be there, and they are gracious to exchange students. However, they have to give their own students top priority and you cannot expect to get deep access to their careers service. Nor will you get alumni status at most exchange schools.

Hi Duncan,

Thanks for the info on the Dutch language. Good to know that there are lot of options for learning the language. I figure that I probably wont be able to get a job in the Netherlands since I cant speak a word of Dutch and learning a new language and getting up to speed within a year is almost mission impossible. It'd probably be better to devote those time to learning a new finance elective, which surely will work to my advantage. But it's a pity that the Netherlands, open as it is, is still looking for individuals who could speak Dutch. Spain and France are suffering as they were too rooted in their own beliefs, and cloistered. These countries were such mighty powers! I like Netherlands a lot, so I hope it wont end up in a state like its counterparts in the EU now.

Well given that the Eurozone is suffering and Asia is booming with lucrative job offers, it aint a bad idea to be look to Asia for jobs, and most of the international companies are there and the language of business - whether you are European, Asian or American - is English, which is my mother tongue. And many of these companies do put their staff on international assignments - so I will just have to work on it.

I am concerned that you said that I shouldn't leverage on RSM MBA outside Europe. It's unsettling. It was one big question that I have been thinking about all this while. If the branding isn't there beyond Europe, I guess I'll have to think many times over. I don't want my future employers to think too lowly of my degree. Wish the Dean had done a lot more to publicize RSM's brand more internationally ! It's ironic considering that RSM is a management school that teaches students how to do marketing and yet it doesnt do too much to up its brand visibility. It's time they engage a consultant?

Duncan - btw, which MBA program did you attend? You mentioned you got a job elsewhere after the RSM offer was made. Your program does seem interesting! Please share.

And did you have a chance to search for jobs in the US? I read that you got a job and were kinda bonded to your employer? I know that Netherlands has a scheme that allows students of the country to work in the US. This is innovative and definitely laudable. I agree with you that the schools will give priority to their students, but surely, I dont think they will turn you away if you go to them, since you are considered a student of the school while you are studying there, aint it?
And being in that country just makes the job search much easier, I believe?

Oh, Dartmouth is an awesome b-sch ! I'd have applied if i had the reserves!!

Hi there,

Well, rather than doing a full-time MBA, I found a new role and my employer there sent me to LBS, where I did the MBA part-time (other than a term full-time at Tuck). I don't think it's realistic to say that it's a pity that in the Netherlands companies are looking for people who speak Dutch. That is the mother-tongue of people here, and customers everywhere in the world prefer to speak their first language to consultants they hire. In investment banking, MBAs will rarely see a *real* customer (as opposed to a peer at another firm). Most large investment banks, even Deutsche Bank, have English as their working language. But if a Dutch brewery hires management consultants, then of course they want to get all the nuance from the consultants and they want consultants to be able to read the documents and speak to the staff: that is the most effective way to do it, and consultants would be less valuable if they tried to work in a country where they did not speak the language. Most Dutch speak some English, but almost all of them refer to use the language they are most fluent in. So unless you're consulting only to English-language organisations or to an English-speaking technical niche, it is a huge benefit to speak the local language to some degree.

The profile of RSM is good considering that it's the business school of a Dutch public university. But the reality is that very few non-US business schools are well know in the USA, which has a huge domestic market and tends to think that the best universities are in the USA. Outside organisations which hire MBAs in bulk (which know the 10 or 20 big non-US accredited schools) few hiring managers in the USA can mention for than a few European universities. Sometimes LBS is confused for the LSE by people unfamiliar with the European MBA scene; people know the Sorbonne, but they don't know the grande ecoles. George Yip has done a great job at RSM, especially in steering the OneMBA with UNC: At least in the US you can say: I'm at RSM, that's the European partner of UNC. I think that gives people a comparison. But the reality is that neither Erasmus the university nor Erasmus the scientist are too well known in the USA. That reflects the objective reality of a school which is academically really well respected (look at its #5 eduniversal ranking, given by a panel of deans) but where most of its alumni are in Europe.

At Tuck, I felt like a guest and not like a Tuck MBA student. We did not have the same access to employers on campus or to the careers services. Tuck alumni are perhaps the most helpful and passionate about their school. However the fact is that US firms also prefer to hire people who have the right to work in the USA, and that b-school careers teams have to focus their time with visiting employers onto the students those employers will want to hire.

It is different for the UK in the Commonwealth countries, where the elite has been educated for generations.

Hi !
Informative conversation.

I realised that the ING Loan through RSM MBA offers loans to all students. However, the student is expected to be earning Euro 35,000 or its equivalent. This is a very difficult rule. If I were to be earning Euro 35,000 equivalent in India, I would not even be thinking of apply to RSM.

Let me know what thoughts you have.

RSM should consider joining the Prodigy scheme: https://www.prodigyfinance.com/get_a_loan Or perhaps it doesn't need more Indian applicants?

RSM should have made clear that international students must have a minimum pre-MBA salary of 35,000 euros per annum (excluding bonus) in order to qualify for the loan. As you can tell from my earlier comments, I was initially quite enamored of the program and was elated to be offered a place at RSM after investing much time and effort into applying for admission to RSM. The disappointment came when I discovered that I had no access to international student loan program by virtue of the fact that my pre-MBA salary was below what the loan institution was looking for. If I had known about this criterion beforehand, I definitely wouldn't have applied to the school, no matter how prestigious or solid the school/curriculum was. I am putting this out here for the benefit of other students who are looking to apply to RSM. Barring further changes to the loan criteria (which is extremely unlikely given the dire financial situation in Europe), you have to be earning a min. base salary of 35,000 euros per annum to qualify ! You cannot include your bonus/incentive in your calculation. This again is likely to cause problems for people employed in positions/companies which have a different wage structure, like those which place greater emphasis on performance bonus than the monthly base salary. Take heed, folks !

On hindsight, I am glad I didn't matriculate at RSM. My subsequent interactions with them showed that they weren't as amazing as I had thought they were. The post-MBA employment opportunities were limited, based on what I've heard through RSM alums whom I have had a chance to meet in my country. As for myself, I applied to several US b-schools and was accepted to a few top institutions and will be starting school this summer in the US. I was offered a partial scholarship (and am still in the running for a full scholarship), and was allowed to take out a no-US co-signer loan to pay the balance of my tuition fees. I wasn't as lucky as most applicants in that I got in in my first round of application to b-schools but I persevered and managed to turn the situation around.

I hope this post will help more students who are making decisions to which school to apply to, including RSM. My final advice : caveat emptor (buyers beware). Do your own research extensively even before you even begin writing those essays. And for int'l students w/o a co-signer, the top most important criteria is often the access to loans and scholarships.

All the best, everyone!

Great Point. This is why I believe RSM is lesser ranked than other business schools. While the Netherlands is very open to foreigners (note that Amsterdam is the most diverse city in the world), hiring foreigners and the complexities it is taking is down at the moment due to the economic crisis. There might be exceptions and I would recommend having a look at http://www.togetherabroad.nl/ which all include jobs for foreigners.

Asians are working everywhere in Amsterdam. I have had 2 of my friends recently accept a position there and they are Asian without a European Passport. You have to play it right!

Niels
MBA Q&A