I am also very grateful to AoZaoMian for his insightful overview about the chinese proficiency levels actually needed in a native chinese company setting.
Still, I do not agree with the message. We should be more precise in what we are talking about. No one is expecting a westerner in China to compete for jobs with local Chinese. I believe Snowbear never implied such intention. An European or American professional with native/very good English and high Chinese fluency and MBA-educated as well :), is sure to come across interesting opportunities in MNC's operating in China.. Not least due to cultural affinity with company top staff and "western" corporate culture on the whole. Otherwise there wouldn't be that many expats working currently in Shanghai and Beijing.
Same currently happens in Moscow (on a much smaller scale) from what I can see - it is packed with Westerners, most if not all of whom learn Russian and are quite succesful in many sectors, from advertising business to production, and now even in govermental top jobs like electricity supply let alone gas&oil.
I believe a MNC can't come to a foreign country and rely totally on local staff - it would disrupt corporate cultural unity and hinder communication. We all know the huge gap between Western and Chinese ways of thinking. You need some one like You to help Your company bring return on investment, at least at early stages. You can't do it alone. Find someone who speaks Your language but, cool, has learned chinese real good.
Comparison of schools in China?
Posted Mar 31, 2012 17:52
Still, I do not agree with the message. We should be more precise in what we are talking about. No one is expecting a westerner in China to compete for jobs with local Chinese. I believe Snowbear never implied such intention. An European or American professional with native/very good English and high Chinese fluency and MBA-educated as well :), is sure to come across interesting opportunities in MNC's operating in China.. Not least due to cultural affinity with company top staff and "western" corporate culture on the whole. Otherwise there wouldn't be that many expats working currently in Shanghai and Beijing.
Same currently happens in Moscow (on a much smaller scale) from what I can see - it is packed with Westerners, most if not all of whom learn Russian and are quite succesful in many sectors, from advertising business to production, and now even in govermental top jobs like electricity supply let alone gas&oil.
I believe a MNC can't come to a foreign country and rely totally on local staff - it would disrupt corporate cultural unity and hinder communication. We all know the huge gap between Western and Chinese ways of thinking. You need some one like You to help Your company bring return on investment, at least at early stages. You can't do it alone. Find someone who speaks Your language but, cool, has learned chinese real good.
Posted Mar 31, 2012 21:49
AoZaoMian, thanks so much for this. I think it is important that Westerners understand that learning fluency in Chinese is much harder than it is with another Western language.
I don't think anyone has any doubt in that. I think what you said previously is very accurate about it taking about 4 times as long as most European languages. That's about right.
However, this other post about "intermediate vs advanced" etc. usually gets overriden by the HSK. Job postings say "Minimum HSK Level 5" or "HSK 5-6 required". This takes out all the guess work of what intermediate is or what fluent is. I have a shocker for you on what fluency is, Aozaomian. As people we only use about 1,200 words per day in conversation. When someone is able to grasp layman conversation, this is fluency. You speak of advanced knowledge in a specific field, which is different. Can you go up to a layman in any country and expect them to walk a client through a contract? Of course not. Does this mean they're not fluent in their own language? And how many people are doing PPTs in front of 100 people?
If you are going to write fluent mandarin on your resume, I honestly think this is a 8 to 10 year time commitment. Fluent means reading and editing the 20 page contract with your customer in Chinese under time pressure. It means being on a phone all day in Chinese talking about purchase orders, accounts receivable collections, quality and design, testing, investment, strategy. It means writing a PPT in Chinese and drafting a formal letter in Chinese. It means hitting the right tones when giving the PPT in front of a 100 person audience. How about a comprehensive understanding of Chinese culture and the thousands of 4 letter Chengyu that one will hear and read throughout one's day?
Your advice seems very tailored and specialized to one or two narrow fields and is probably correct for those narrow fields. If you can't draw up a legal contract because you're not an attorney, this doesn't mean you lack English fluency. It means you lack the knowledge of an attorney. Same with you writing up a plan for open-heart surgery. Specialized knowledge where you may not recognize a lot of terms and words. Doesn't mean you're not fluent in English.
Your 10 year guess is a little more realistic than your initial 25 year guess, but as I said before, as a former translator, these time lines are simply not accurate.
Duncan is right on about Chinese being about 4-5 times as hard as a European language on average. Your estimate has it at about 22 times as hard. This would imply that people born in China don't reach fluency until age 15.
I think your advice on having a high-level executive position in China with Chinese clients is good advice. But your advice on language is simply not realistic unfortunately.
I don't think anyone has any doubt in that. I think what you said previously is very accurate about it taking about 4 times as long as most European languages. That's about right.
However, this other post about "intermediate vs advanced" etc. usually gets overriden by the HSK. Job postings say "Minimum HSK Level 5" or "HSK 5-6 required". This takes out all the guess work of what intermediate is or what fluent is. I have a shocker for you on what fluency is, Aozaomian. As people we only use about 1,200 words per day in conversation. When someone is able to grasp layman conversation, this is fluency. You speak of advanced knowledge in a specific field, which is different. Can you go up to a layman in any country and expect them to walk a client through a contract? Of course not. Does this mean they're not fluent in their own language? And how many people are doing PPTs in front of 100 people?
<blockquote> If you are going to write fluent mandarin on your resume, I honestly think this is a 8 to 10 year time commitment. Fluent means reading and editing the 20 page contract with your customer in Chinese under time pressure. It means being on a phone all day in Chinese talking about purchase orders, accounts receivable collections, quality and design, testing, investment, strategy. It means writing a PPT in Chinese and drafting a formal letter in Chinese. It means hitting the right tones when giving the PPT in front of a 100 person audience. How about a comprehensive understanding of Chinese culture and the thousands of 4 letter Chengyu that one will hear and read throughout one's day?</blockquote>
Your advice seems very tailored and specialized to one or two narrow fields and is probably correct for those narrow fields. If you can't draw up a legal contract because you're not an attorney, this doesn't mean you lack English fluency. It means you lack the knowledge of an attorney. Same with you writing up a plan for open-heart surgery. Specialized knowledge where you may not recognize a lot of terms and words. Doesn't mean you're not fluent in English.
Your 10 year guess is a little more realistic than your initial 25 year guess, but as I said before, as a former translator, these time lines are simply not accurate.
Duncan is right on about Chinese being about 4-5 times as hard as a European language on average. Your estimate has it at about 22 times as hard. This would imply that people born in China don't reach fluency until age 15.
I think your advice on having a high-level executive position in China with Chinese clients is good advice. But your advice on language is simply not realistic unfortunately.
Posted Mar 31, 2012 22:22
Well, just a word of defence for AoZaoMian. Maybe most people use 1,200 words but most Westerners looking at taking their MBA in China might hope to be taking fast-track, managerial roles like the ones MBAs get in other countries. With 1,200 words of a language, I think a foreigner could have a job as an teacher of their language, or in an export sales role, or in a manual job, or work in a Western firm. But with such a limited command of Chinese can one get those high salaries and excellent prospects which the Chinese graduates of top MBA programmes get in Chinese firms? Most will not.
I'm not as familiar with mainland China as I am with Taiwan, Korea or Japan, but I think in those countries it is not only the language barrier which holds people back, but cultural and ideological ones as well: for example some overseas born Chinese friends of mine have found it very hard to connect meaningfully in China. When I think of the roles of Westerners in my big Chinese multinational client, they are not in the managerial mainstream.
I'm not as familiar with mainland China as I am with Taiwan, Korea or Japan, but I think in those countries it is not only the language barrier which holds people back, but cultural and ideological ones as well: for example some overseas born Chinese friends of mine have found it very hard to connect meaningfully in China. When I think of the roles of Westerners in my big Chinese multinational client, they are not in the managerial mainstream.
Posted Mar 31, 2012 23:13
This makes perfect sense. I can see how people would think the MBA is a push-button process for money and success. For myself, if money and success were my main drivers, I would just stay in the US and not entertain going to China.
About the 1,200 words thing, that's on average in a given day for moderately educated speech. Nothing highly advanced but a few levels above just pub talk. You need to know maybe 4,000 or so words in your arsenal to be able to tackle the random 1,200 you get in a day. Won't get you a PhD but it's considered fluent by most people from a common sense approach even if you don't know laser physics in Chinese.
Besides, if I decide to try for a China MBA, class wouldn't even begin for another 18 months from now and I currently study 2 hours a day 7 days a week and have for about 17 months thus far. That would be around 3 years of total daily study when class merely begins, then 2 years of study on top of that before school is even done. So 5 years of daily study minimum 2 hours a day, I'll leave the math up to AoZaoMian on that one for how much someone can learn in that time frame. I won't be an expert, but I'll be able to say a few phrases after 4,000-5,000 hours of diligent study not counting small talk conversation that I do every day in Chinese as well for practice.
Out of curiosity, Duncan, I hear stories quite often of people who are sent to China by their company to live and work there. Some don't speak Chinese even after years of being there. That doesn't make sense to me. What would their role be? Is that an example of someone who has worked in the same company for many years and now has job responsibilities that don't include much in the way of speaking the local language? Some of these guys seem in their 40's (not saying that's old by any means), so what kinds of backgrounds have you seen in those Asian countries?
All your advice is top notch by the way, so thank you for that.
About the 1,200 words thing, that's on average in a given day for moderately educated speech. Nothing highly advanced but a few levels above just pub talk. You need to know maybe 4,000 or so words in your arsenal to be able to tackle the random 1,200 you get in a day. Won't get you a PhD but it's considered fluent by most people from a common sense approach even if you don't know laser physics in Chinese.
Besides, if I decide to try for a China MBA, class wouldn't even begin for another 18 months from now and I currently study 2 hours a day 7 days a week and have for about 17 months thus far. That would be around 3 years of total daily study when class merely begins, then 2 years of study on top of that before school is even done. So 5 years of daily study minimum 2 hours a day, I'll leave the math up to AoZaoMian on that one for how much someone can learn in that time frame. I won't be an expert, but I'll be able to say a few phrases after 4,000-5,000 hours of diligent study not counting small talk conversation that I do every day in Chinese as well for practice.
Out of curiosity, Duncan, I hear stories quite often of people who are sent to China by their company to live and work there. Some don't speak Chinese even after years of being there. That doesn't make sense to me. What would their role be? Is that an example of someone who has worked in the same company for many years and now has job responsibilities that don't include much in the way of speaking the local language? Some of these guys seem in their 40's (not saying that's old by any means), so what kinds of backgrounds have you seen in those Asian countries?
All your advice is top notch by the way, so thank you for that.
Posted Apr 01, 2012 18:35
When I think of foreigners sent to China I think of Western multinationals who need knowledge-intensive, experienced professionals to ensure integration and consistency with their Western operations. For example, they need
- want a leader with long standing to head their operations
- need a technical expert to guide local researchers
- need a advertising expert familiar with Western brands to assist in their localisation
- logistics manager for a manufacturing plant.
These are not roles for fresh hires, or for freshly-minded MBAs. I do think the best reason for a Western to study in China is to help Western firms to connect with China -- but working in a Chinese firm which isn't in international education seems very hard. It's not only a question of language, but also cultural fluency and rootedness.
- want a leader with long standing to head their operations
- need a technical expert to guide local researchers
- need a advertising expert familiar with Western brands to assist in their localisation
- logistics manager for a manufacturing plant.
These are not roles for fresh hires, or for freshly-minded MBAs. I do think the best reason for a Western to study in China is to help Western firms to connect with China -- but working in a Chinese firm which isn't in international education seems very hard. It's not only a question of language, but also cultural fluency and rootedness.
Posted Apr 05, 2012 16:39
Check out:
http://www.thechinaexpat.com/chinese-learning-goal/
I've met plenty of people who have studied 5 years of Chinese. They vary greatly in their progress. The best thing you can do is take your time and learn the tones. Regarding the difference between a person who has a great vocabulary/bad tones and one with a lesser vocabulary and accurate tones - the latter is much better off.
http://www.thechinaexpat.com/chinese-learning-goal/
I've met plenty of people who have studied 5 years of Chinese. They vary greatly in their progress. The best thing you can do is take your time and learn the tones. Regarding the difference between a person who has a great vocabulary/bad tones and one with a lesser vocabulary and accurate tones - the latter is much better off.
Posted Apr 05, 2012 17:02
I have a great example of why this is true. When I was in Taipei I shared a place with a guy who was learning Chinese through self-study -- an unusua choice considering the scholarships avaiable for foreigners there. He learnt from a dictionary for a certain part of every day and had a massive vocabulary, but when he ordered beer at the SevenEleven tey brought him bananas. And those two words to not sound similar at all ;-)
Posted Apr 05, 2012 17:50
I agree with Duncan that it is more difficult for European to learn Chinese because European languages are pretty similar and all come from Latin alphabet plus the grammars are pretty similar.
Chinese language is similar to Korean, Japanese because they are of the same origin thus kinda similar tone as well as grammatical construct.
So it is about shifting language paradigm and not just shifting language.
So depending on different languages paradigms you are familiar with you will make better progress learning Chinese
Chinese language is similar to Korean, Japanese because they are of the same origin thus kinda similar tone as well as grammatical construct.
So it is about shifting language paradigm and not just shifting language.
So depending on different languages paradigms you are familiar with you will make better progress learning Chinese
Posted Apr 05, 2012 19:09
Check out:
http://www.thechinaexpat.com/chinese-learning-goal/
I've met plenty of people who have studied 5 years of Chinese. They vary greatly in their progress. The best thing you can do is take your time and learn the tones. Regarding the difference between a person who has a great vocabulary/bad tones and one with a lesser vocabulary and accurate tones - the latter is much better off.
That website is somewhat ridiculous in its forecasts for years required and I think it's not being serious. If you're truly interested in the subject, I recommend you read some books on language acquisition and take a look at the amount of studies done on how fast it takes the average learner to pick up a language. People vary greatly in progress after "x years" because they're not studying the same amount of hours.
If you study 5 minutes per day, then it will take you 10 times as long as someone who studies 1 hour per day on average. The human brain requires a certain amount of hours actively learning.
Let's look at what the website says about "stumbling conversation." 2 years? If someone studies 2 hours a day for 2 years, that's almost 3,000 hours of Chinese. It has long since been overturned the myth that children learn language faster than adults as more studies indicate this is not true. That graph is basically a joke and doesn't seem to be backed by any type of science or empirical evidence. Again, read some on language acquisition if you're truly curious and then go talk to some professional translators.
Duncan, the best method I have seen and the one I currently use is a combination of self-study, guided study, and then practice. Every 45-60 minutes of study requires at least a 15 minute pause in between. This includes when watching movies or television so your mind doesn't begin to tune out what it doesn't understand. Myself, I do 60-90 minutes of guided study 4 times per week, I read my learning books for about 30-60 minutes per day, I watch some Chinese news for 20-30 minutes and then I talk to Chinese people I know for about 20 minutes minimum. The key is to have a different conversation every time and not talk about the same things. 15 minutes of cardiovascular exercise per day is also important, something about how it interacts with the brain, I'm not sure on the details, but it works for me.
If anyone follows that routine with discipline, they'll be quite good after 2 years in any language and be well beyond "stumbling conversation". You must have guided instruction from a native speaker though and access to others to converse with daily. That's key.
http://www.thechinaexpat.com/chinese-learning-goal/
I've met plenty of people who have studied 5 years of Chinese. They vary greatly in their progress. The best thing you can do is take your time and learn the tones. Regarding the difference between a person who has a great vocabulary/bad tones and one with a lesser vocabulary and accurate tones - the latter is much better off.</blockquote>
That website is somewhat ridiculous in its forecasts for years required and I think it's not being serious. If you're truly interested in the subject, I recommend you read some books on language acquisition and take a look at the amount of studies done on how fast it takes the average learner to pick up a language. People vary greatly in progress after "x years" because they're not studying the same amount of hours.
If you study 5 minutes per day, then it will take you 10 times as long as someone who studies 1 hour per day on average. The human brain requires a certain amount of hours actively learning.
Let's look at what the website says about "stumbling conversation." 2 years? If someone studies 2 hours a day for 2 years, that's almost 3,000 hours of Chinese. It has long since been overturned the myth that children learn language faster than adults as more studies indicate this is not true. That graph is basically a joke and doesn't seem to be backed by any type of science or empirical evidence. Again, read some on language acquisition if you're truly curious and then go talk to some professional translators.
Duncan, the best method I have seen and the one I currently use is a combination of self-study, guided study, and then practice. Every 45-60 minutes of study requires at least a 15 minute pause in between. This includes when watching movies or television so your mind doesn't begin to tune out what it doesn't understand. Myself, I do 60-90 minutes of guided study 4 times per week, I read my learning books for about 30-60 minutes per day, I watch some Chinese news for 20-30 minutes and then I talk to Chinese people I know for about 20 minutes minimum. The key is to have a different conversation every time and not talk about the same things. 15 minutes of cardiovascular exercise per day is also important, something about how it interacts with the brain, I'm not sure on the details, but it works for me.
If anyone follows that routine with discipline, they'll be quite good after 2 years in any language and be well beyond "stumbling conversation". You must have guided instruction from a native speaker though and access to others to converse with daily. That's key.
Posted Apr 05, 2012 19:13
Made a typo. 4 hours a day for 2 years would be 3,000 hours. Won't let me edit. You get the idea though.
Posted Apr 07, 2012 07:45
Let the Chinese spend their life effort learning Chinese and we spend our times doing more important things.
Since when are we proud of taking more shit than others?
Since when are we proud of taking more shit than others?
Posted Apr 07, 2012 07:56
Let the Chinese spend their life effort learning Chinese and we spend our times doing more important things.
Since when are we proud of taking more shit than others?
With that website's logic posted up there, if you're born in China, you don't get to an educated speaking level until you retire (60 years). I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people with post high school education have a higher language fluency than those without in almost any country. On average, of course. I seem to have missed the part where everyone in China who has a degree or a trade is in their 60's. Over 100 million in China are said to be illiterate. So no matter how old they are, I guess they should study for 15 years to gain literacy?
Chinese is difficult, don't get me wrong, but some people really take it to extremes and throw everything we know about language acquisition out the window. Just because I'm not fluent in Chinese doesn't mean I lack common sense or have somehow lost my mind.
Since when are we proud of taking more shit than others? </blockquote>
With that website's logic posted up there, if you're born in China, you don't get to an educated speaking level until you retire (60 years). I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people with post high school education have a higher language fluency than those without in almost any country. On average, of course. I seem to have missed the part where everyone in China who has a degree or a trade is in their 60's. Over 100 million in China are said to be illiterate. So no matter how old they are, I guess they should study for 15 years to gain literacy?
Chinese is difficult, don't get me wrong, but some people really take it to extremes and throw everything we know about language acquisition out the window. Just because I'm not fluent in Chinese doesn't mean I lack common sense or have somehow lost my mind.
Posted Apr 21, 2012 05:34
snowbear ...
I visited Beijing and Tsinghua campuses the past fall. Both these are consider top universities in China, so they have a real strong image to Chinese. You can see that lots foreign schools want to have alliance with them.
Tsinghua is more science oriented like Imperial College or MIT. Beijing is more government oriented for their alumni. According to the locals Tsinghua should be more business oriented.
One great thing about the schools is they also have good Chinese language training. So when you do MBA you can also take more Chinese language if you wanted.
Go to; http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/publish/then/5789/index.html
It is really personal choice but my feeling was Tsinghua has a lot more resources and science park and connection to business.
I am now station in Shenzhen. I use more English because working with international company. So even the other local staff need to conduct business in English. Lucky for me.
I know lots foreigners who don't speak any Chinese working here. Also, there are lots that learn some and fluent. They told me it takes 2-3 years of serious study in a language institute to read and write (for a newspaper).
Hope it can help.
If you know any good EMBA around Shenzhen/Hong Kong let me know.
I visited Beijing and Tsinghua campuses the past fall. Both these are consider top universities in China, so they have a real strong image to Chinese. You can see that lots foreign schools want to have alliance with them.
Tsinghua is more science oriented like Imperial College or MIT. Beijing is more government oriented for their alumni. According to the locals Tsinghua should be more business oriented.
One great thing about the schools is they also have good Chinese language training. So when you do MBA you can also take more Chinese language if you wanted.
Go to; http://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/publish/then/5789/index.html
It is really personal choice but my feeling was Tsinghua has a lot more resources and science park and connection to business.
I am now station in Shenzhen. I use more English because working with international company. So even the other local staff need to conduct business in English. Lucky for me.
I know lots foreigners who don't speak any Chinese working here. Also, there are lots that learn some and fluent. They told me it takes 2-3 years of serious study in a language institute to read and write (for a newspaper).
Hope it can help.
If you know any good EMBA around Shenzhen/Hong Kong let me know.
Posted Apr 29, 2012 04:48
So after being in China some time and speaking with mid to higher level Chinese people in business settings, I've found out some interesting things.
Apparently, even though schools like Beida, Tsinghua, and Jiaotong are top Chinese schools, the English language programs aren't looked at in the same way. Several people that seem to really know what they're doing told me that when a Chinese person goes there for a program, it's great. When a foreigner goes there and does a program like IMBA, it's not looked at as "This guy went to one of the top schools in China." It's looked at as "This guy went to such and such for the English program instead of getting an MBA in the US/Europe." It could be seen as a negative compared to a decent US school, for example. I heard this explanation from quite a few people. Many people did say it is connections that make a big difference, which is true, but they say this is true with Chinese companies in China, which could be a risky move unless someone is convinced they want to spend their career in China. Apparently doing so could make you too specialized in China and then be stuck without being able to make a change if you want to.
I confirmed a lot of what Duncan said about how MNC opportunities are for experienced mid-level managers and higher whose US/Europe experience is wanted in China. What Ezra said also seems true that "rocket science Chinese" is not really expected or desired. I asked one gentleman who runs a large office of a MNC in Beijing about expected Chinese level of a foreigner. He told me that with most MNC, Chinese is used for conversation and for relationships, but core business is done in English unless you're in a field of something like engineering or science. I asked him about needing the ability to draw up legal documents in Chinese and he just laughed and said "Of course not, that's ridiculous. No one expects a foreigner to be able to do that. Doesn't mean they're not valuable."
As far as Chinese language ability, I think the 4 year estimate is solid. At my current level (less than 2 years), I haven't had to use English for hardly anything. The plate of bananas hasn't come yet with my dinner, but you never know.
All in all, it appears that an MBA from a halfway decent US school is more desired than a degree from the English language programs at the Chinese universities. This is my interpretation from talking to quite a few people I've been introduced to and from visiting the schools themselves that have pretty low bars to entry from what I could tell. I confirmed a whole lot of what Duncan and Ezra were mentioning. I haven't been able to confirm hardly anything AoZaoMian said about the 20-60 year Chinese learning ability or not being able to call fluency in a language if you're not a trained cancer researcher/astrophysicist/attorney with all needed terminology. (In fact, I think I lost my English fluency since I can't define all the terms in Black's Law Dictionary. I guess in English I'm just conversationally fluent huh?)
I think for myself, a US MBA program with a Chinese exchange component would be good. Any thoughts on those, or should I make another topic in the US section of the forum? Anyone have any thoughts on the information I found out?
Apparently, even though schools like Beida, Tsinghua, and Jiaotong are top Chinese schools, the English language programs aren't looked at in the same way. Several people that seem to really know what they're doing told me that when a Chinese person goes there for a program, it's great. When a foreigner goes there and does a program like IMBA, it's not looked at as "This guy went to one of the top schools in China." It's looked at as "This guy went to such and such for the English program instead of getting an MBA in the US/Europe." It could be seen as a negative compared to a decent US school, for example. I heard this explanation from quite a few people. Many people did say it is connections that make a big difference, which is true, but they say this is true with Chinese companies in China, which could be a risky move unless someone is convinced they want to spend their career in China. Apparently doing so could make you too specialized in China and then be stuck without being able to make a change if you want to.
I confirmed a lot of what Duncan said about how MNC opportunities are for experienced mid-level managers and higher whose US/Europe experience is wanted in China. What Ezra said also seems true that "rocket science Chinese" is not really expected or desired. I asked one gentleman who runs a large office of a MNC in Beijing about expected Chinese level of a foreigner. He told me that with most MNC, Chinese is used for conversation and for relationships, but core business is done in English unless you're in a field of something like engineering or science. I asked him about needing the ability to draw up legal documents in Chinese and he just laughed and said "Of course not, that's ridiculous. No one expects a foreigner to be able to do that. Doesn't mean they're not valuable."
As far as Chinese language ability, I think the 4 year estimate is solid. At my current level (less than 2 years), I haven't had to use English for hardly anything. The plate of bananas hasn't come yet with my dinner, but you never know.
All in all, it appears that an MBA from a halfway decent US school is more desired than a degree from the English language programs at the Chinese universities. This is my interpretation from talking to quite a few people I've been introduced to and from visiting the schools themselves that have pretty low bars to entry from what I could tell. I confirmed a whole lot of what Duncan and Ezra were mentioning. I haven't been able to confirm hardly anything AoZaoMian said about the 20-60 year Chinese learning ability or not being able to call fluency in a language if you're not a trained cancer researcher/astrophysicist/attorney with all needed terminology. (In fact, I think I lost my English fluency since I can't define all the terms in Black's Law Dictionary. I guess in English I'm just conversationally fluent huh?)
I think for myself, a US MBA program with a Chinese exchange component would be good. Any thoughts on those, or should I make another topic in the US section of the forum? Anyone have any thoughts on the information I found out?
Posted Apr 29, 2012 14:00
Well, Chinese are inferior complex that is all I can say they appeal to authority and superiority and not understanding mutual respect and reciprocity.
The way they treat their own people is also suspecting
The way they treat their own people is also suspecting
Posted Apr 29, 2012 14:11
Well, I think that people are different everywhere. Some Chinese people are pretty rude and distasteful, but some are very nice and good people. Every country, city, and neighborhood anywhere has its mix of good and bad.
Working in China one day will definitely be challenging if that's what I decide to try and do. The pay is low compared to other places and enterprise doesn't seem as "sophisticated" I guess we could say. But then again, I'm not one to take the easy road on anything. Learning the Chinese language alone is quite challenging. I don't do it for any congratulations or to have a conversation piece. There are easier ways to accomplish that. I do it to push the limits of my own mind and learn a little more about this planet I live on.
I encourage anyone to expand their own minds and challenge themselves as often as they can. One day we'll wake up and it'll be our last day alive. We should try and make the story as interesting as possible while we're here.
Working in China one day will definitely be challenging if that's what I decide to try and do. The pay is low compared to other places and enterprise doesn't seem as "sophisticated" I guess we could say. But then again, I'm not one to take the easy road on anything. Learning the Chinese language alone is quite challenging. I don't do it for any congratulations or to have a conversation piece. There are easier ways to accomplish that. I do it to push the limits of my own mind and learn a little more about this planet I live on.
I encourage anyone to expand their own minds and challenge themselves as often as they can. One day we'll wake up and it'll be our last day alive. We should try and make the story as interesting as possible while we're here.
Posted Apr 30, 2012 00:16
How about a US part-time MBA in greater China?
UNC EMBA http://globalbusiness.uncc.edu/graduate-programs
Iowa EMBA http://www.uiowa.edu.hk/dm/reply.htm
Or the top Taiwanese MBA?
http://www.mba.ntu.edu.tw/
Or a CUNY MS in greater China after an MBA abroad?
http://zicklin.baruch.cuny.edu/programs/international-executive-programs/programs
UNC EMBA http://globalbusiness.uncc.edu/graduate-programs
Iowa EMBA http://www.uiowa.edu.hk/dm/reply.htm
Or the top Taiwanese MBA?
http://www.mba.ntu.edu.tw/
Or a CUNY MS in greater China after an MBA abroad?
http://zicklin.baruch.cuny.edu/programs/international-executive-programs/programs
Posted Sep 12, 2012 09:06
I am looking at enrolling in a Chinese MBA and I found this post extremely helpful, thanks everyone for their contributions!
Posted Oct 03, 2012 06:48
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/9ddcb74c-fc38-11e1-ac0f-00144feabdc0.html#axzz28CsrJDBt
Deans capitalise on the China connection
By Della Bradshaw
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9ddcb74c-fc38-11e1-ac0f-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz28CyYSDSA
On the window sill in Qian Yingyi?s Beijing office, a framed photo of Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, sits next to one of Goldman Sachs?s Lloyd Blankfein and another of Vikram Pandit of Citigroup. All three bankers are members of the advisory board for Tsinghua?s school of economics and management where Prof Qian has been dean since 2006.
Few, if any, business schools anywhere in the world can rival Tsinghua in attracting these captains of business and Prof Qian is understandably proud as he talks through the list of board members. At the annual get-
together, Pepsi?s Indra Nooyi shares the boardroom table with Coca Cola?s Muhtar Kent; they rub shoulders with Axa?s Henri de Castries, Victor Fung of the Li & Fung group, Renault-Nissan?s Carlos Ghosn and Howard Stringer, chairman and former chief executive of Sony.
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9ddcb74c-fc38-11e1-ac0f-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz28CyVBgLL
For these corporate superstars, the draw is a foothold in what is arguably China?s most influential university and one that has the ear of government. Prof Qian was even approached personally by Zhu Rongji, China?s former premier, to be the dean of Tsinghua?s management school.
?If the premier asks you to come back [from the US] to be dean, how can you say no?? he asks.
Educated at Harvard, Yale and Columbia, Prof Qian is just one of a new generation of business school deans at China?s elite universities, charged with bringing western business knowhow to a growing economy.
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9ddcb74c-fc38-11e1-ac0f-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz28CySNHIr
Across town at the Guanghua school at Peking University, Stanford-educated Cai Hongbin returned to China in 2005 from Yale and UCLA and was made dean in 2010.
?I came back in 2005 because I think that this is such an exciting time to participate in China?s change and try and have an impact,? says Prof Cai. ?This is an opportunity I couldn?t miss. In terms of excitement, especially as an economist, there are so many important economics and policy issues. For me it was a pretty natural decision.?
In Shanghai, Antai College at Shanghai Jiao Tong University boasts the urbane econometrics specialist Zhou Lin as dean. With a PhD from Princeton, Prof Zhou, who holds US citizenship, previously taught at Yale, Duke and Arizona State in the US.
And although Lu Xiongwen is a Fudan man through and through ? he received all his degrees from the Shanghai university where he is now business school dean, Prof Lu has been a visiting scholar at MIT Sloan and Fisher College at Ohio State University as well as a postdoctoral research fellow at the Tuck school at the Ivy League Dartmouth College.
This sophisticated gang of four are mapping out plans to turn China?s elite business schools into world-class players. Their schools have already achieved international validation from one or more of the international accreditation bodies, such as the US?s AACSB and Equis in Europe, and have signed partnerships with some of the world?s top business schools ? Harvard, MIT Sloan, Insead and the Olin school at Washington University, to name just a few.
?We?ve learnt a lot from our partner schools,? says Prof Lu at Fudan. ?We keep watching the main changes.?
Now they are making changes of their own and devising programmes that are attractive to Chinese and overseas students alike, making them simultaneously more international while building on core knowledge about Chinese business and economy. ?We have to do two things at the same time: to catch up and to leapfrog,? says Prof Qian.
To further their cause the four are hiring faculty in their own image. Of the 75 new faculty hires at Tsinghua over the past six years only two got their PhDs at Tsinghua ? most graduated from the US, Canada and the UK. At Guanghua two-thirds of faculty can teach in English.
?We?re international enough to teach and do research in English,? says Prof Cai.
At Guanghua, Prof Cai is pushing for MBA students to study or travel overseas. ?Over the next few years it is time for us to make more effort for international impact. This is a big change from five to 10 years ago.?
At all four schools there is a focus on developing teaching in English. ?I want to compete with Oxford and Cambridge and I?m sure they don?t speak Chinese,? points out Prof Qian.
All are aware that just teaching the standard business school set texts will not enable them to leapfrog the international competition; their special knowledge of China will. In particular it will make them more attractive to international students. ?Our faculty have deep knowledge of the Chinese economy,? says Prof Cai. ?If we taught the standard US and European business knowledge, it wouldn?t make any sense for them [(MBA students] to come to China for two years.?
At Tsinghua the mantra is ?Global roots, China vision?, a philosophy reiterated elsewhere.
?We will continue our current philosophy to serve this country and in the long run to contribute to the global economy,? says the Fudan dean.
?I want my students to work in every corner of the world. The future of business education will be shaped by the rise in the Chinese economy,? believes Prof Qian. ?We are catching up quickly. But we are not world-class yet.?
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9ddcb74c-fc38-11e1-ac0f-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz28CydrnTT
A stamp of approval
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, they say. Now the Chinese business school community has
been charged by the Chinese government to launch an accreditation system that will mirror, and could potentially compete with, those from the US and Europe
in the future.
Although there are more than 230 MBA programmes taught in China, the accreditation system will begin by assessing a handful of top schools that are already accredited by both the AACSB, the US accreditation body, and Equis in Brussels ? Tsinghua, Fudan and Shanghai Jiao Tong universities. The three institutions will be fast-tracked through the process.
A further six business schools, including Tongji University, Nankai University, the East China University of Science and Technology and the Shanghai University of Finance and Economics will follow in the next phase of accreditation.
Fudan dean Lu Xiongwen has been appointed vice-chair of the accreditation process and is in charge of its implementation. One focus of the quality stamp will be the academic standing of the university and the quality of the research conducted there, he says.
?We want Chinese research that can be published in international markets.?
He believes that research into Chinese business has a growing appeal in the international business and academic community. ?The Chinese business environment is unique. More and more foreign scholars are interested in Chinese business.?
The accreditation scheme was officially launched in September.
Deans capitalise on the China connection
By Della Bradshaw
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9ddcb74c-fc38-11e1-ac0f-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz28CyYSDSA
On the window sill in Qian Yingyi?s Beijing office, a framed photo of Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JPMorgan Chase, sits next to one of Goldman Sachs?s Lloyd Blankfein and another of Vikram Pandit of Citigroup. All three bankers are members of the advisory board for Tsinghua?s school of economics and management where Prof Qian has been dean since 2006.
Few, if any, business schools anywhere in the world can rival Tsinghua in attracting these captains of business and Prof Qian is understandably proud as he talks through the list of board members. At the annual get-
together, Pepsi?s Indra Nooyi shares the boardroom table with Coca Cola?s Muhtar Kent; they rub shoulders with Axa?s Henri de Castries, Victor Fung of the Li & Fung group, Renault-Nissan?s Carlos Ghosn and Howard Stringer, chairman and former chief executive of Sony.
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9ddcb74c-fc38-11e1-ac0f-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz28CyVBgLL
For these corporate superstars, the draw is a foothold in what is arguably China?s most influential university and one that has the ear of government. Prof Qian was even approached personally by Zhu Rongji, China?s former premier, to be the dean of Tsinghua?s management school.
?If the premier asks you to come back [from the US] to be dean, how can you say no?? he asks.
Educated at Harvard, Yale and Columbia, Prof Qian is just one of a new generation of business school deans at China?s elite universities, charged with bringing western business knowhow to a growing economy.
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9ddcb74c-fc38-11e1-ac0f-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz28CySNHIr
Across town at the Guanghua school at Peking University, Stanford-educated Cai Hongbin returned to China in 2005 from Yale and UCLA and was made dean in 2010.
?I came back in 2005 because I think that this is such an exciting time to participate in China?s change and try and have an impact,? says Prof Cai. ?This is an opportunity I couldn?t miss. In terms of excitement, especially as an economist, there are so many important economics and policy issues. For me it was a pretty natural decision.?
In Shanghai, Antai College at Shanghai Jiao Tong University boasts the urbane econometrics specialist Zhou Lin as dean. With a PhD from Princeton, Prof Zhou, who holds US citizenship, previously taught at Yale, Duke and Arizona State in the US.
And although Lu Xiongwen is a Fudan man through and through ? he received all his degrees from the Shanghai university where he is now business school dean, Prof Lu has been a visiting scholar at MIT Sloan and Fisher College at Ohio State University as well as a postdoctoral research fellow at the Tuck school at the Ivy League Dartmouth College.
This sophisticated gang of four are mapping out plans to turn China?s elite business schools into world-class players. Their schools have already achieved international validation from one or more of the international accreditation bodies, such as the US?s AACSB and Equis in Europe, and have signed partnerships with some of the world?s top business schools ? Harvard, MIT Sloan, Insead and the Olin school at Washington University, to name just a few.
?We?ve learnt a lot from our partner schools,? says Prof Lu at Fudan. ?We keep watching the main changes.?
Now they are making changes of their own and devising programmes that are attractive to Chinese and overseas students alike, making them simultaneously more international while building on core knowledge about Chinese business and economy. ?We have to do two things at the same time: to catch up and to leapfrog,? says Prof Qian.
To further their cause the four are hiring faculty in their own image. Of the 75 new faculty hires at Tsinghua over the past six years only two got their PhDs at Tsinghua ? most graduated from the US, Canada and the UK. At Guanghua two-thirds of faculty can teach in English.
?We?re international enough to teach and do research in English,? says Prof Cai.
At Guanghua, Prof Cai is pushing for MBA students to study or travel overseas. ?Over the next few years it is time for us to make more effort for international impact. This is a big change from five to 10 years ago.?
At all four schools there is a focus on developing teaching in English. ?I want to compete with Oxford and Cambridge and I?m sure they don?t speak Chinese,? points out Prof Qian.
All are aware that just teaching the standard business school set texts will not enable them to leapfrog the international competition; their special knowledge of China will. In particular it will make them more attractive to international students. ?Our faculty have deep knowledge of the Chinese economy,? says Prof Cai. ?If we taught the standard US and European business knowledge, it wouldn?t make any sense for them [(MBA students] to come to China for two years.?
At Tsinghua the mantra is ?Global roots, China vision?, a philosophy reiterated elsewhere.
?We will continue our current philosophy to serve this country and in the long run to contribute to the global economy,? says the Fudan dean.
?I want my students to work in every corner of the world. The future of business education will be shaped by the rise in the Chinese economy,? believes Prof Qian. ?We are catching up quickly. But we are not world-class yet.?
High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/9ddcb74c-fc38-11e1-ac0f-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz28CydrnTT
A stamp of approval
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, they say. Now the Chinese business school community has
been charged by the Chinese government to launch an accreditation system that will mirror, and could potentially compete with, those from the US and Europe
in the future.
Although there are more than 230 MBA programmes taught in China, the accreditation system will begin by assessing a handful of top schools that are already accredited by both the AACSB, the US accreditation body, and Equis in Brussels ? Tsinghua, Fudan and Shanghai Jiao Tong universities. The three institutions will be fast-tracked through the process.
A further six business schools, including Tongji University, Nankai University, the East China University of Science and Technology and the Shanghai University of Finance and Economics will follow in the next phase of accreditation.
Fudan dean Lu Xiongwen has been appointed vice-chair of the accreditation process and is in charge of its implementation. One focus of the quality stamp will be the academic standing of the university and the quality of the research conducted there, he says.
?We want Chinese research that can be published in international markets.?
He believes that research into Chinese business has a growing appeal in the international business and academic community. ?The Chinese business environment is unique. More and more foreign scholars are interested in Chinese business.?
The accreditation scheme was officially launched in September.
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