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2. Virtually all multinational corporations operating in China do recruit international students. Since you have some Mandarin, you are in a better position than most
4. Well, networking in China is extremely useful, networking means everything. But don't worry too much that CEIBS doesn't have undergraduate programme - the networking here (at HKUST) is a kind of separate, i.e. MBA and EMBA network in their own pool, undergrads network in their own. Undergrads will bring you only third hand network - important sometimes, but not that crucial as the MBA network
7. $140k is stated in PPP; to get the real dollars, divide by 4
9. Too many to take them into consideration. According to local Chinese rankings, all more or less good schools are N1 in a respective rating. For CEIBS, Tsinghua, Peking - they all three will say "We are N1 in China according to _____ ranking" in their presentations :)

1. There are numerous differences between the two, with perhaps the biggest being culture (and therefore a question of fit for the student). It is not uncommon for people to compare Tsinghua to MIT and BeijingU to a place like Yale. The science and tech school vs. lib arts college.

with regards to the MBA programs, there seems to be a growing consensus in the business community that both BeijingU's Guanghua and Tsinghua SEM are rapidly approaching A league status globally. BeijingU's Bimba program (taught separately from Guanghua) on the other hand is not quite of the same caliber.


3. CEIBS is specialized in recruiting students who are well positioned for work in multinationals in Shanghai and then building them up for that end goal. Peking and Tsinghua are quite different in that they have a broader and perhaps more standard goal of placing students in domestic companies, multinationals and state owned enterprises as well as entrepreneurship.

I do not believe that any of the three schools is better, but rather each is best suited to different people and objectives. If entrepreneurship in the mainland is the end objective, I would fin it very hard to argue in favor of CEIBS in Shanghai. CEIBS is not good at this (there is no ecosystem for entrepreneurship, the silicone valley is in Beijing, there is no broad alumni network, etc).

As per BeijingU or Tsinghua, do you want social/human or science/tech?

4. CEIBS is not that strong academically and Tsinghua/Beida have far more heavyweight professors. CEIBS is very good at marketing however and may appear stronger. If you dig a little, you will see that none of the Chinese schools have the same quality as the top10 american schools. This being said, they are not far behind.

5. The CEIBS students are quite good and are good fits for multinationals operating in Shanghai.

The BeijingU and Tsinghua students come from a broader background and are also quite strong. The international students are also different in that many of them have a strong entrepreneurial drive.

7. CEIBS students average around 300,000 RMB/year (Chinese students) and 500,000 RMB (international students)

Tsinghua Students average around 250,000 RMB year (Ch) and 400,000 RMB (intl.).

Beida: marginally less than Tsinghua, but no proof easily accessible

The big difference is that CEIBS students are particularly chosen for multinationals, whereas the Tsinghua students are selected for a broader range (ie. including entrepreneurship) of positions. The Tsinghua students who go work for multinationals make the same amount as those from CEIBS.

9. In the past, BeijingU's Guanghua and Tsinghua SEM have not participated in international rankings, though this will likely change soon. Domestically, they generally tie for 1st or are 1st and 2nd. CEIBS and CKGSB are different, they are not Chinese universities and therefore come out on top in different rankings. It is really hard to compare these private schools with universities (like Insead/Ceibs vs. Stanford/Tsinghua) however.

The two three MBA program in China is
1. CEIBS
2. CKGSB
3. BIMBA

Tsinghua, Peking MBA program is similar as Oxford and Cambridge MBA program, quite famouse university but not so good on MBA program

CEIBS is like Insead while CKGSB as IMD

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so i just joined this forum to comment,

I actually got accepted in both programs, but know of people who got accepted into one versus another.

After talking to a lot of people, many comments here are pretty much repeated.

BIMBA is not the same caliber.

Tsinghua is more engineering (althrough chinese leadership currently comes from here, many people are saying Beida will have more political power in the incoming years)

Beida is more social based.

based on reputation, beida is more known internationally on a general person perspective. But if the person you are talking to is a graduate from MIT, they know about Tsinghua. (friends there knew exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned Tsinghua) not sure about other schools though. And if you are only talking about in China, Tsinghua is known to be overall better. But Beida is still pretty damn good (in their eyes)

Beida seems to have WAY more international programs, where Tsinghua seems to have a smaller yet elite group (potentially HBS, Stanford,MIT)

Here's my view. Beida Guanghua and Tsinghua are burdened by bureaucracy under the control of China's Ministry of Education, underfunded, and struggle to get beyond domestic pay-scales for professors - they have a hard time attracting the best professors back from abroad, so it's China-style education, which although is modernizing fast, still isn't getting there. Guanghua is likely the better bet of these two.

CEIBS, which is also government owned, has done the best job so far, but grew too big too fast and is burdened as a "joint-venture" where it's not clear whether the Europeans or Chinese are in control of the school, so watch out for a coming identity crisis there.

Cheung Kong GSB is still young, but has the best positioning. It's independent, Chinese-owned and run, and has backing from the Li Ka-shing Foundation which keeps it funded (without bringing in government) and helps to bring in the best professors. The MBA Program is about 1/3 the size of CEIBS, but the overall quality of students might be edging a bit higher because they keep it small.

Good points on the CEIBS vs. Beida/Tsinghua! Why do you believe Guanghua is the better than Tsinghua?

My thoughts on the professor comments - Is the goal of a Chinese School is to attract world recognized professors that speak no Chinese? Most professors that come to China to do research find that Chinese is a necessity. Otherwise, the inability to convieniently do interviews and read Chinese can be a major hinderance. This raises the question of how sustainable it is to bring a foreign teacher to a Chinese MBA school. As an alumni, if you call a professor for help in 5 years, what is the likelyhood the foreign professor will still be in China?

The above assumes the main reason you come to China is for the professors. Other factors:

1) Classmates, alumni and those in your community for the two years you are there are also a big element. Tsinghua and BEIDA are still bigname schools for students around the entirety of China, meaning you can meet those not only from Beijing but from future growth markets in Central/Western/Northeast China. When discussing alumni, although Tsinghua/BEIDA have a prominent list of alumni, it is important to realize that to take full advantage of this resource (meaning contacting alumns or EMBAs you have never met) fluency in Chinese, both reading and spoken, is important.

2) Language Learning - If you graduate from an MBA in China and do not speak Chinese, your job functions will be limited. The best option may be to start your own business.

3) Location is also a major issue. Most of the Tsinghua graduates this year are staying in Beijing, with a few going to Shanghai and other places in China/Asia. Those graduates that are starting their own business have found Beijing to be a good place to hire employees (an easy way to either hire undergraduates/graduates from Tsinghua/Beida), as well as find access to Venture Capital and meet strategic partners. Traditionally, CEIBS has placed most of their graduates in Shanghai. It will be interesting where their foreign student graduates end up this year.

Have you considered the Lauder programme?

lauder.wharton.upenn.edu

They have a Chinese track programme that I've gotten a lot out from. Many of us on this programme went through the same process of thinking about these other schools, but for various reasons chose to come to Lauder instead (quality of classmates and professors, for one, is simply not on the same level).

Feel free to contact me via email if you have more questions about the programme.

-Jason Teo, Wharton/Lauder (Chinese) Class of 2010

Jelt, just came across this post.

I am in the same situation and am looking at the lauder program, but am a bit concerned about the OPI test. Are there any other programs at a top U.S. school with a less strict OPI requirement?

I am American-born Chinese as well, but speak Cantonese. I have however, been to Chinese school taught in Mandarin as a kid, so can understand most Mandarin, but unable to express myself. On the flip side, I have been working in Japan for the last 7 years, and so can easily pass the OPI for Japanese... It's just that I would like to focus on Mandarin going forward...

As a student ambassador of the Tsinghua International MBA program, I thought I would make myself available to answer any specific questions you all may have about the program/school culture/student-life etc. Feel free to post here as we will be checking the post regularly...

Also, one of my classmates just did an interview on the site's blog, have a look through, hopefully it will give you some perspective...
http://blog.find-mba.com/

Hi there,

Thanks for the help here! After reading that blog entry I started to get interested in China-based MBA programs, but am wondering about how accommodating Beijing is to foreigners. Being an American citizen with no knowledge of the Chinese language, how drastic would the culture shock be? And is it difficult to learn enough Chinese to work in a Chinese company in Beijing after graduation?

Thanks again!

As a student ambassador of the Tsinghua International MBA program, I thought I would make myself available to answer any specific questions you all may have about the program/school culture/student-life etc. Feel free to post here as we will be checking the post regularly...

Also, one of my classmates just did an interview on the site's blog, have a look through, hopefully it will give you some perspective...
http://blog.find-mba.com/

Hey Retail Richard,

Glad you liked his blog entry. To answer your question, how challenging you find Beijing will depend very much on your character. I'll try to give you some insights from my experience though:

Shanghai is probably the easier city for an expat to acclimatize to, but it's also easy to get sucked into the expat life out there. Beijing feels a little more root-y... by that I mean you really feel like you're experiencing Chinese culture here more than you might in Shanghai (yes I've spent time in both cities). So it depends what you're looking for from your time in China.

Being a foreigner who can speak a few words of Chinese will probably get you much further than being an American-born Chinese (or British/Canadian etc) who has elementary Chinese skills. It's all about expectation really.

This brings me on to your last question - while it's honestly going to be quite difficult to learn the language within 2 years such that you'll be business-fluent by the time you graduate, it's not impossible. Several of my classmates spoke no Chinese on arrival, and while some are still shunning the language, others have embraced it amazingly quickly. Your speed of learning will depend how excited you are to immerse yourself. However, referring to my previous point, the question should really be how much Chinese will you need to get by doing whatever it is you want to do after graduation.

Coming to China is by no means easy, but if you come with an open mind and a genuine interest to experience, you'll be right with the thousands of overseas students surviving just fine / having the time of their lives in Beijing. The shock's pretty much inevitable when you're relocating here from the US, it's just how quickly you're prepared to get over it and start having fun. Hope that answers your question!

I appreciate the help the Tsinghua SAP are doing in trying to educate the community about doing a MBA in China. I understand it is your job to sell it, but I also appreciate some of the realistic answers.

I think the Chinese language is an issue that needs to be addresses. For example- a previous answer to my question on what happens to non-Asian MBA graduates when they have intermediate Chinese level (can only read 70% of a newspaper, can't give presentations in Chinese fluently, mostly coherent in listening) - This would probably refer to your classmates who have embraced the language.

"if you don't speak fluent chinese, then work for a MNC where English is the common language" can work, but I just don't buy that. Localization strategies have been going on for the past 5 years plus in China. Here on some thoughts on the following business functions for a non Chinese MBA graduate who speaks intermediate Chinese.

Marketing/Sales: B2C, B2B, luxury, wholesale, Chinese market, International market. It appears a foreigner could do well with a company who has a HQ in China but is doing international sales and market programs (Lenovo, Haier). Additionally, many companies are moving their Asia Pacific HQ to Shanghai from HQ and Singapore.
- Question - Why would they hire a foreign Tsinghua MBA over a ABC/Chinese who did their MBA at a top 20 and speaks fluent Chinese.

Finance: IB/PE/VC seem limited for foreigners in China if you need to negotiate, read documents, and manage teams in Chinese. How are your foreign classmates approaching this sector? I

HR: Any Foreign classmates trying to enter this sector in China?

Strategy/Business Development: The easy position for foreigners to break into since it is research intensive and can be done in English. The problem is how do you move up in the company - going from BD to Operations is very difficult. Also, how easy will it be able to prove your worth in this company your first 2 to 3 years so you get pay raises and promotions and a record to sell for future employees? Thus, unless you are in a good company that can develop you, it seems foreigners need to carefully consider these jobs.

Jintian,

A helpful way for a foreigner to explore his career options is doing what most MBAs are taught to do from the 1st semester.

1) Define the market. How big is it? What are the niche sectors? What are the big sectors?

2) Porter 5 Forces - Who are the buyers, suppliers, barriers to entry, substitutes, competitors?

3) Market Analysis - How do you get the service or product to the customer? Promotions, Placement, Pricing, etc..

So if you want to be a consultant in the IT industry following your Tsinghua or CEIBS IMBA, think about the above. Who is hiring IT consultants? How big is the market? Is it a $1 billion industry or $100 million. If it is $1 billion, then who are the suppliers of the consultants (Domestic or Foreign Enterprises). Of the Foreign Enterprises, how many Western consultants do they have with intermediate Chinese? If any, do they have niche customers they work with like foreign companies or startups in China started by international/foreigners who use English as the working language?

Same thing with another industry - define the market. Chances are the bigger the market, the more opportunities there are for finding niche segments for foreigners.

China's strenghth is the market is growing - and thus if you can set your vision 5 to 10 years on a growing industry and work hard, you can either find or develop the niche where foreigners can make a living (and hopefully an IPO cash out).

Would any of you know about the EMBA programs at the schools mentioned? Will the same info apply to it too? Thanks.

The EMBA programs in China appear to be strictly networking opportunities. The difference is the type of executives who attend.

Tsinghua EMBA - all in Chinese, big power players and entrepreneurs from all over China.
Tsinghua/INSEAD EMBA - senior level Asia Rim managers. Many overseas Chinese who now have nice jobs in China. Also attract SE Asia and Australia/NZ.
CEIBS EMBA: Much more Shanghai based.

While this is pretty true generally - I think in a country as big and diverse as China, your choice of where you go to school is a pretty huge deal. The business landscape of Shanghai is different from Beijing, and both are miles away, figuratively, from Hong Kong. The better schools (Tsinghua, CEIBS, etc) understand this and can help you adapt and network.

The EMBA programs in China appear to be strictly networking opportunities. The difference is the type of executives who attend.

Tsinghua EMBA - all in Chinese, big power players and entrepreneurs from all over China.
Tsinghua/INSEAD EMBA - senior level Asia Rim managers. Many overseas Chinese who now have nice jobs in China. Also attract SE Asia and Australia/NZ.
CEIBS EMBA: Much more Shanghai based.

The best EMBA program is Cheung Kong Graduate School of Business. almost all top 50 companies have their CEO in the CKGSB program.

Academically, CKGSB is far stronger than the rest of the pack. They are founded by Hong Kong Tycoon Li Kashing and they are able to attract top scholars in the US at a premium. Recently, three chaired professors from Columbia University, U of Michigan and Carnegie Mellon University joined CKGSB.

CKGSB also hires faculties with global compensation while Tsinghua/Beida can only pay 20% of that. If you look at their biographies, you will find that Tsinghua/Beida faculty are much less well known internationally while CKGSB can snatch faculties from the likes of Columbia, MIT, Wharton, Stanford, UC Berkeley, NYU, Canegie Mellon, UCLA, UC San Diego, Washington U, Kellogg and the likes