HEC vs IE (or IESE)


ravi24

There's a not a massive gap in the quality of the students of the outcomes. IESE is generally ranked slightly above HEC but, for example, this year HEC is higher. However, IESE is way harder and heavier than HEC. Generally, it's very hard to get into the grandes ecoles, and when you are there it's taken for granted that you are smart. Your role there is to accelerate, acclimatize, contextualise, specialize and network. IESE is harder work, and the students can't avoid their weaknesses, be that quant work or group work. In different ways, that different is also one of managerial cultures between their countries. However, it also reflects the division of labour between IESE and ESADE which is reflective of the difference between those schools owners, Opus Dei and the Society of Jesus.
Indeed, the long programme at IESE is the traditional format and is the better one for changers, those who are shifting country, role, industry. The track without an internship is better for those who are accelerating on the same path. That's true everywhere, of course. The longer the format, the more chances you have to make a transition. 
In a nutshell - Generally, IESE is a better school for finance. http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/top-mbas-for-finance-2018 


Duncan, I was reading this informative note again, and was wondering if you could share why you think HEC (for its MBA program) follows a sort of teaching and learning environment that's more suited to, let's say, the Grande Ecole students? Based on your note, it appears IESE does everything HEC does, and more.

Also, how should one be able to extract the sort of information you share here? I mean, I've attended several schools' webinars, and while some distinctly stand out in a few aspects, it's quite difficult to gauge and compare them completely. Of course, speaking to current students and former students is great, but barring those who do an exchange, pretty much of the input one would receive would be biased. Any tips on how to 'search better'?  

Thank you!

[quote]There's a not a massive gap in the quality of the students of the outcomes. IESE is generally ranked slightly above HEC but, for example, this year HEC is higher. However, IESE is way harder and heavier than HEC. Generally, it's very hard to get into the grandes ecoles, and when you are there it's taken for granted that you are smart. Your role there is to accelerate, acclimatize, contextualise, specialize and network. IESE is harder work, and the students can't avoid their weaknesses, be that quant work or group work. In different ways, that different is also one of managerial cultures between their countries. However, it also reflects the division of labour between IESE and ESADE which is reflective of the difference between those schools owners, Opus Dei and the Society of Jesus.<div><br></div><div>Indeed, the long programme at IESE is the traditional format and is the better one for changers, those who are shifting country, role, industry. The track without an internship is better for those who are accelerating on the same path. That's true everywhere, of course. The longer the format, the more chances you have to make a transition.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>In a nutshell - Generally, IESE is a better school for finance.&nbsp;<a href="http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/top-mbas-for-finance-2018">http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/top-mbas-for-finance-2018</a>&nbsp;</div> [/quote]<br><br>Duncan, I was reading this informative note again, and was wondering if you could share why you think HEC (for its MBA program) follows a sort of teaching and learning environment that's more suited to, let's say, the Grande Ecole students? Based on your note, it appears IESE does everything HEC does, and more.<br><br>Also, how should one be able to extract the sort of information you share here? I mean, I've attended several schools' webinars, and while some distinctly stand out in a few aspects, it's quite difficult to gauge and compare them completely. Of course, speaking to current students and former students is great, but barring those who do an exchange, pretty much of the input one would receive would be biased. Any tips on how to 'search better'?&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br>Thank you!
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Duncan

HEC is a grande école so it teaches like one. You don't need to have visited HEC as often as me to Inuit that. I'm not really sure what you are asking. 

HEC is a grande école so it teaches like one. You don't need to have visited HEC as often as me to Inuit that. I'm not really sure what you are asking.&nbsp;
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ravi24

Thank you, Duncan. Intuition was the word I was looking for - and my question really was how do you intuit things like "HEC is a grande école so it teaches like one" for other schools as well, especially for some of the UK B Schools that are attached to mammoth parent universities, such as Oxbridge, Imperial, Warwick, Manchester, etc.

Thank you, Duncan. Intuition was the word I was looking for - and my question really was how do you intuit things like "HEC is a grande école so it teaches like one" for other schools as well, especially for some of the UK B Schools that are attached to mammoth parent universities, such as Oxbridge, Imperial, Warwick, Manchester, etc.
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Duncan

If you were not familiar with the national of a grande ecole then you could not guess it. However, if you knew that HEC was one of the five top grandes ecoles, and knowing the isomorphism of Frech society, it's not surprising that it would be similar to others. 
Sadly, I know what I know from dozens of years teaching in, studying in and advising on schools. It's not all guessable. But, I think if you get the idea of a grande ecole, and understand how assimlationist French culture is, then you should not be surprised that a top French school works the way other top French schools do. 

If you were not familiar with the national of a grande ecole then you could not guess it. However, if you knew that HEC was one of the five top grandes ecoles, and knowing the isomorphism of Frech society, it's not surprising that it would be similar to others.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Sadly, I know what I know from dozens of years teaching in, studying in and advising on schools. It's not all guessable. But, I think if you get the idea of a grande ecole, and understand how assimlationist French culture is, then you should not be surprised that a top French school works the way other top French schools do.&nbsp;</div>
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ravi24

Sadly, I know what I know from dozens of years teaching in, studying in and advising on schools. It's not all guessable.

And that's why we keep coming back to this forum again, and again, Duncan. 1f642

There are few things one just cannot gather from reading a brochure or watching a webinar, or even talking to school staff and students. Not sure how helpful it would be, but if schools could perhaps record say, one class (this has been done more in the US, and even moreso after the advent of MOOCs), which could give a students a sense of 'how' and 'what' the school teaches. Just a thought.

[quote]<div>Sadly, I know what I know from dozens of years teaching in, studying in and advising on schools. It's not all guessable.</div> [/quote]<div><br>And that's why we keep coming back to this forum again, and again, Duncan.&nbsp;:slightly-smiling-face:<br><br>There are few things one just cannot gather from reading a brochure or watching a webinar, or even talking to school staff and students. Not sure how helpful it would be, but if schools could perhaps record say, one class (this has been done more in the US, and even moreso after the advent of MOOCs), which could give a students a sense of 'how' and 'what' the school teaches. Just a thought.</div>
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Duncan

I remember that ESSEC did this and I think Furtwangen did too: putting a lot of classes online helps to set expectations and show the reality.

I remember that ESSEC did this and I think Furtwangen did too: putting a lot of classes online helps to set expectations and show the reality.
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ravi24

Duncan, I've been doing some digging around, and what's most interesting to me are the following stats (all taken from respective employment reports):

HEC:
Class of 2018: 39% triple jump, international mobility rank (per FT): 3
Class of 2019: 39% triple jump, international mobility rank (per FT): 7

IESE:
Class of 2018: 23% triple jump (with 36% sponsored visas), international mobility rank (per FT): 13
Class of 2019: 21% triple jump (with 38% sponsored visas), international mobility rank (per FT): 14
Here's what's stated for sponsored visas: "At IESE, many students target markets that they do not have the passport (or authorization) to work in. In total, many successfully navigate this issue to employment."

So while IESE is ranked better consistently, I wonder if certain nationalities/demographic are better suited to really harness what the school offers. Any thoughts on this, and the gulf between the respective triple jump stats?

Thanks!

[Edited by ravi24 on May 06, 2020]

Duncan, I've been doing some digging around, and what's most interesting to me are the following stats (all taken from respective employment reports):<br><br>HEC:<br>Class of 2018: 39% triple jump, international mobility rank (per FT): 3<br>Class of 2019: 39% triple jump, international mobility rank (per FT): 7<br><br>IESE:<br>Class of 2018: 23% triple jump (with 36% sponsored visas), international mobility rank (per FT): 13<br>Class of 2019: 21% triple jump (with 38% sponsored visas), international mobility rank (per FT): 14<br>Here's what's stated for sponsored visas: "At IESE, many students target markets that they do not have the passport (or authorization) to work in. In total, many successfully navigate this issue to employment."<br><br>So while IESE is ranked better consistently, I wonder if certain nationalities/demographic are better suited to really harness what the school offers. Any thoughts on this, and the gulf between the respective triple jump stats?<br><br>Thanks!<br>
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Duncan

Complex factors. My experience, have studied at a Grande Ecole and then a French university, is that people who study in France are also highly motivated to move to France. People who study at IESE might want to return to their Latin American base.

Complex factors. My experience, have studied at a Grande Ecole and then a French university, is that people who study in France are also highly motivated to move to France. People who study at IESE might want to return to their Latin American base.
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ravi24

Thank you, Duncan - the employment reports do reflect that. On a separate note, I found this Coursera MOOC run by HEC (https://www.coursera.org/specializations/inspirational-leadership), and was wondering if you could comment on how closely the MBA program at HEC follows this.

Thank you!

Thank you, Duncan - the employment reports do reflect that. On a separate note, I found this Coursera MOOC run by HEC (<a href="https://www.coursera.org/specializations/inspirational-leadership">https://www.coursera.org/specializations/inspirational-leadership</a>), and was wondering if you could comment on how closely the MBA program at HEC follows this.<br><br>Thank you!
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Duncan

This course is not a microcosm of the MBA, but MBAs do address these issues, along many others.

This course is not a microcosm of the MBA, but MBAs do address these issues, along many others.
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ravi24

Complex factors. My experience, have studied at a Grande Ecole and then a French university, is that people who study in France are also highly motivated to move to France. People who study at IESE might want to return to their Latin American base.


Another reason why this could be the case is that France really does have a larger footprint when it comes to the typical industries MBAs generally recruit for - even though the companies themselves might not be French, more have offices in France when compared to Spain. Also, France's visa rules seem to be more streamlined and straight forward, when compared to Spain.

[quote]Complex factors. My experience, have studied at a Grande Ecole and then a French university, is that people who study in France are also highly motivated to move to France. People who study at IESE might want to return to their Latin American base. [/quote]<br><br>Another reason why this could be the case is that France really does have a larger footprint when it comes to the typical industries MBAs generally recruit for - even though the companies themselves might not be French, more have offices in France when compared to Spain. Also, France's visa rules seem to be more streamlined and straight forward, when compared to Spain.
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ravi24

Duncan, this is probably a very naive question, but how exactly does one classify MBA programs based on their duration? I mean, is HEC's 16-month MBA program really a two-year program? Forbes ranked the school in the Two Year MBA category, and others too that are not necessarily 'full' two year programs. What's the threshold? Thanks!

Duncan, this is probably a very naive question, but how exactly does one classify MBA programs based on their duration? I mean, is HEC's 16-month MBA program really a two-year program? Forbes ranked the school in the Two Year MBA category, and others too that are not necessarily 'full' two year programs. What's the threshold? Thanks!
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Duncan

This is a question for Forbes but I guess four semesters versus two semesters. 

This is a question for Forbes but I guess four semesters versus two semesters.&nbsp;
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jatan512

Just curious to know Duncan as to why you rate Esade so highly ? Is it comparable to IESE and HEC in terms of outcomes and employment for non-EU citizens ?

Just curious to know Duncan as to why you rate Esade so highly ? Is it comparable to IESE and HEC in terms of outcomes and employment for non-EU citizens ?
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Duncan

Do I rate it highly? I just think it's fairly ranked. It is exactly comparable to HEC for employment and international mobility: http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-ranking-2020 Of course, it recruits slightly less senior students than HEC and IESE. 

Do I rate it highly? I just think it's fairly ranked. It is exactly comparable to HEC for employment and international mobility:&nbsp;<a href="http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-ranking-2020">http://rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/global-mba-ranking-2020</a>&nbsp;Of course, it recruits slightly less senior students than HEC and IESE.&nbsp;
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jatan512

Thanks. Asked cause I'm joining Esade and wanted to know your view on the institute. I chose Esade over Hec since I believe it aligns better with my long term goals of Entrepreneurship. 
Had a query related to the short term though. Do you know if exchange students to top MBA colleges at US/ UK. get any support from the careers department ? Are there any colleges where you find exchange students getting employment through on campus fairs/ recruitment activity ? ( Speaking as an Indian, native English speaker ).

Thanks. Asked cause I'm joining Esade and wanted to know your view on the institute. I chose Esade over Hec since I believe it aligns better with my long term goals of Entrepreneurship.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Had a query related to the short term though. Do you know if exchange students to top MBA colleges at US/ UK. get any support from the careers department ? Are there any colleges where you find exchange students getting employment through on campus fairs/ recruitment activity ? ( Speaking as an Indian, native English speaker ).</div>
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Duncan

I think my experience at Tuck was typical: exchange students are lowest priority for both career services and employers. 

I think my experience at Tuck was typical: exchange students are lowest priority for both career services and employers.&nbsp;
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Razors Edg...

Thanks. Asked cause I'm joining Esade and wanted to know your view on the institute. I chose Esade over Hec since I believe it aligns better with my long term goals of Entrepreneurship. 
Had a query related to the short term though. Do you know if exchange students to top MBA colleges at US/ UK. get any support from the careers department ? Are there any colleges where you find exchange students getting employment through on campus fairs/ recruitment activity ? ( Speaking as an Indian, native English speaker ).
My feeling is that this - international students landing jobs in the country where they do exchanges - doesn't happen very often. Your school will have much stronger services in the country where it is located. And host schools for exchanges have very little incentive to provide you with career services. 

[quote]Thanks. Asked cause I'm joining Esade and wanted to know your view on the institute. I chose Esade over Hec since I believe it aligns better with my long term goals of Entrepreneurship.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Had a query related to the short term though. Do you know if exchange students to top MBA colleges at US/ UK. get any support from the careers department ? Are there any colleges where you find exchange students getting employment through on campus fairs/ recruitment activity ? ( Speaking as an Indian, native English speaker ).</div> [/quote]<div>My feeling is that this - international students landing jobs in the country where they do exchanges - doesn't happen very often. Your school will have much stronger services in the country where it is located. And host schools for exchanges have very little incentive to provide you with career services.&nbsp;</div>
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jatan512

Thanks. Asked cause I'm joining Esade and wanted to know your view on the institute. I chose Esade over Hec since I believe it aligns better with my long term goals of Entrepreneurship. 
Had a query related to the short term though. Do you know if exchange students to top MBA colleges at US/ UK. get any support from the careers department ? Are there any colleges where you find exchange students getting employment through on campus fairs/ recruitment activity ? ( Speaking as an Indian, native English speaker ).
My feeling is that this - international students landing jobs in the country where they do exchanges - doesn't happen very often. Your school will have much stronger services in the country where it is located. And host schools for exchanges have very little incentive to provide you with career services. 

Thanks. I'll be sure to take this into account. Fully weighing the pro's and cons of an exchange sem. 

[quote][quote]Thanks. Asked cause I'm joining Esade and wanted to know your view on the institute. I chose Esade over Hec since I believe it aligns better with my long term goals of Entrepreneurship.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Had a query related to the short term though. Do you know if exchange students to top MBA colleges at US/ UK. get any support from the careers department ? Are there any colleges where you find exchange students getting employment through on campus fairs/ recruitment activity ? ( Speaking as an Indian, native English speaker ).</div> [/quote]<div>My feeling is that this - international students landing jobs in the country where they do exchanges - doesn't happen very often. Your school will have much stronger services in the country where it is located. And host schools for exchanges have very little incentive to provide you with career services.&nbsp;</div> [/quote]<div><br></div><div>Thanks. I'll be sure to take this into account. Fully weighing the pro's and cons of an exchange sem.&nbsp;</div>
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StuartBB

As a rule of thumb, schools discourage students from taking an exchange if they need to find a job. That's one reason why the exchange generally happens after the summer internship: students with offers can take the exchange, leaving the careers team to focus on fewer people. Very few schools (Chicago, Insead, Harvard etc) have careers staff focussed on supporting job hunts in other countries. On my exchange, I found the careers team were polite but always put their own students first. I got a great review of my resume. I was able to access the alumni database while a student. I could attend most, but not all, events organized by the careers team (often only when not enough of the home-school students wanted to attend). 
You also have to consider the visa situation and the domestic market. Canada loves foreign talent because it can be paid a discount. The USA doesn't. UK recruiters know what an MBA is; many French ones don't. 

[Edited by StuartBB on May 14, 2020]

As a rule of thumb, schools discourage students from taking an exchange if they need to find a job. That's one reason why the exchange generally happens after the summer internship: students with offers can take the exchange, leaving the careers team to focus on fewer people. Very few schools (Chicago, Insead, Harvard etc) have careers staff focussed on supporting job hunts in other countries. On my exchange, I found the careers team were polite but always put their own students first. I got a great review of my resume. I was able to access the alumni database while a student. I could attend most, but not all, events organized by the careers team (often only when not enough of the home-school students wanted to attend).&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>You also have to consider the visa situation and the domestic market. Canada loves foreign talent because it can be paid a discount. The USA doesn't. UK recruiters know what an MBA is; many French ones don't.&nbsp;</div>
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