Distance Learning - MBA, MSc or Certificates


Marksy
Hi,

I'm thinking about how I can sharpen my profile having a legal background (Germany). Nevertheless, I notice that basic business knowledge is becoming more and more important.
Obviously, there are several options: an MBA (Durham, Illinois, for example) a Masters degree (http://www.escpeurope.eu/programmes/executive-masters/Executive-Master-in-international-business) or different certificates (https://execed.hec.edu/en/online-executive-programs). Of course, I want to get the best for my money and get the most out of it.
The university or program should be AACSB , AMBA or EQUIS accredited.
What would you advise me to do with the information given?

Greetings
Marksy
Hi,

I'm thinking about how I can sharpen my profile having a legal background (Germany). Nevertheless, I notice that basic business knowledge is becoming more and more important.
Obviously, there are several options: an MBA (Durham, Illinois, for example) a Masters degree (http://www.escpeurope.eu/programmes/executive-masters/Executive-Master-in-international-business) or different certificates (https://execed.hec.edu/en/online-executive-programs). Of course, I want to get the best for my money and get the most out of it.
The university or program should be AACSB , AMBA or EQUIS accredited.
What would you advise me to do with the information given?

Greetings
Marksy
quote
Duncan
I see a tension between wanting the knowledge and needing accreditation. If you just want knowledge then take MOOCs. Accreditation is a signal that you want more. So, think about your goals and the assets you are looking for. That will clarify your needs.
I see a tension between wanting the knowledge and needing accreditation. If you just want knowledge then take MOOCs. Accreditation is a signal that you want more. So, think about your goals and the assets you are looking for. That will clarify your needs.
quote
Marksy
Hi Duncan,

thank you very much for your quick reply. Of course, as you said, I need to clarify what I defintetly want and need. After I participated in an online presentation of Birmingham I was a little bit shocked regarding the though timetable they presented and study time around 15 hours per week. It was a punch in the face as I regnognized that it would mean having less flexibility in comparison to the LL.M. I also finished online. Just to make it clear, I not only want to focus on strengthen my skills, but also sharpen my profile and adding a new qualification to my CV. In the end I am absolutely sure that all needed information can be get by self-studying, but unfortunately reaching out for a better position in Germany means having some more titles in your CV. However, I'm struggling with regards to whether an MSc or an MBA would suit me best. As far as I understood the MBA should be the best choice for persons who don't have a business background. But how about some MBA essential courses/diplomas from well-knowned and respected institutions as HEC or INSEAD. Worth the money or better save the money and spend it on an MBA? Obviously the MBA from Illinois seems to be one of your favourites.
Hi Duncan,

thank you very much for your quick reply. Of course, as you said, I need to clarify what I defintetly want and need. After I participated in an online presentation of Birmingham I was a little bit shocked regarding the though timetable they presented and study time around 15 hours per week. It was a punch in the face as I regnognized that it would mean having less flexibility in comparison to the LL.M. I also finished online. Just to make it clear, I not only want to focus on strengthen my skills, but also sharpen my profile and adding a new qualification to my CV. In the end I am absolutely sure that all needed information can be get by self-studying, but unfortunately reaching out for a better position in Germany means having some more titles in your CV. However, I'm struggling with regards to whether an MSc or an MBA would suit me best. As far as I understood the MBA should be the best choice for persons who don't have a business background. But how about some MBA essential courses/diplomas from well-knowned and respected institutions as HEC or INSEAD. Worth the money or better save the money and spend it on an MBA? Obviously the MBA from Illinois seems to be one of your favourites.
quote
Duncan
I think the certificates are not very well understood or highly valued in Germany outside traditional MBA employers, and even they see them as often being vanity qualification with no real rigour (certificates of attendance, for example, rather than academic credit reflecting real assessment). It's just more Zuegnisse to show you can stay seated while someone lectures.

For most of the German labour market, I don't think there's a big difference between the LSE Graduate Diploma in Management (which sounds a little like a Diplom Kaufman/frau) and the Illinois MBA. If you are looking at international firms then the MBA is valued. Really, the LSE diploma may teach you much more than an IHK qualification but it might sound better.

Of coirse if you want real learning rather than just a certificate, then an accredited MBA is the way to go. I would also look at part-time options.
I think the certificates are not very well understood or highly valued in Germany outside traditional MBA employers, and even they see them as often being vanity qualification with no real rigour (certificates of attendance, for example, rather than academic credit reflecting real assessment). It's just more Zuegnisse to show you can stay seated while someone lectures.

For most of the German labour market, I don't think there's a big difference between the LSE Graduate Diploma in Management (which sounds a little like a Diplom Kaufman/frau) and the Illinois MBA. If you are looking at international firms then the MBA is valued. Really, the LSE diploma may teach you much more than an IHK qualification but it might sound better.

Of coirse if you want real learning rather than just a certificate, then an accredited MBA is the way to go. I would also look at part-time options.
quote
Marksy
Thanks a lot for a second time, Duncan. Indeed my motivation is currently based on two pillars: The first one is enlarging my knowledge in light of economic basics and the other one is having a rock-solid certificate/MBA/MSc which demonstrates my skills towards the labour market.
Honeystly I'm a little bit confused about your comparision between the LSE Graduate Diploma and the "Diplom-Kaufmann/Kauffrau", because the last one is based regularly on a study time of at least 3 years. Maybe the "Diplom-Kaufmann/Kauffrau" is closer to a Bachelor degree.

Are you sure that the Germans are that far away from the academic workd that they wouldn't see anydifference between the LSE Graduate Diploma (£2155) and the iMBA from Illinois (around $ 22.000). Indeed, from my point of view LSE sounds like a big brand whereas Illinois is well-known to those who care about rankings. In the end, I guess, in Germany recruiters are much more focussed on titels which surround your name, such as Dr., JD, MBA, MSc, LL.M. That's why I think going for an MBA or MSc should be worth spending the money. However, Durham would be the maximum, because of the fees which would be paid by myself.

But what about something like parallel studies? Beginning with a certificate and then starting an MBA? Would you recommend an MBA or MSc in my situation and which programme would suit me best with regards to my legal background? Unfortunately I'm definitely not a born mathematician, but do love logic thinking and developing strategies or improving processes. In the end my focus is still on the distance learning option, giving me flexibility to a certain amount.

What do I need? Staying flexible and having the opportunity to enlarge my knowledge, even though reaching a regular graduation from an university far not comparable at all with a German IHK qualification.
Thanks a lot for a second time, Duncan. Indeed my motivation is currently based on two pillars: The first one is enlarging my knowledge in light of economic basics and the other one is having a rock-solid certificate/MBA/MSc which demonstrates my skills towards the labour market.
Honeystly I'm a little bit confused about your comparision between the LSE Graduate Diploma and the "Diplom-Kaufmann/Kauffrau", because the last one is based regularly on a study time of at least 3 years. Maybe the "Diplom-Kaufmann/Kauffrau" is closer to a Bachelor degree.

Are you sure that the Germans are that far away from the academic workd that they wouldn't see anydifference between the LSE Graduate Diploma (£2155) and the iMBA from Illinois (around $ 22.000). Indeed, from my point of view LSE sounds like a big brand whereas Illinois is well-known to those who care about rankings. In the end, I guess, in Germany recruiters are much more focussed on titels which surround your name, such as Dr., JD, MBA, MSc, LL.M. That's why I think going for an MBA or MSc should be worth spending the money. However, Durham would be the maximum, because of the fees which would be paid by myself.

But what about something like parallel studies? Beginning with a certificate and then starting an MBA? Would you recommend an MBA or MSc in my situation and which programme would suit me best with regards to my legal background? Unfortunately I'm definitely not a born mathematician, but do love logic thinking and developing strategies or improving processes. In the end my focus is still on the distance learning option, giving me flexibility to a certain amount.

What do I need? Staying flexible and having the opportunity to enlarge my knowledge, even though reaching a regular graduation from an university far not comparable at all with a German IHK qualification.
quote
LYES87
I have previously looked at the Executive Master in International Business from ESCP Europe (Madrid) and I dismissed it for the reason that It's an unofficial degree which means it is not recognized by Spanish authorities and only worth the school's reputation. If it's not recognized by Spanish authorities then it's automatically not recognized by other European countries. I know there are only a few cases where you would face rejection for your degree and these are possibly public sector jobs or pursuing doctoral studies. Not sure if these cases apply to you but definitely something to think about. I know how bureaucratic Germany could be.

[Edited by LYES87 on Sep 16, 2018]

I have previously looked at the Executive Master in International Business from ESCP Europe (Madrid) and I dismissed it for the reason that It's an unofficial degree which means it is not recognized by Spanish authorities and only worth the school's reputation. If it's not recognized by Spanish authorities then it's automatically not recognized by other European countries. I know there are only a few cases where you would face rejection for your degree and these are possibly public sector jobs or pursuing doctoral studies. Not sure if these cases apply to you but definitely something to think about. I know how bureaucratic Germany could be.
quote
Duncan
I think this choice depends a lot on which part of the job market you are aiming at. The MBA is relatively new in Germany. Unlike the USA, Canada or UK, the market for post-experience business degrees is rather limited. If you are aiming at big multinationals like Accenture, Microsoft, SAP, McKinsey or BASF then they will be real connoisseurs of the MBA market. Illinois might not impress them. There's no employers in Germany than employ even a handful of Illinois MBAs. So, it's slim leverage.

Of course anyone who compares the MBA with the LSE diploma will see the difference. However, almost no-one will do that in the German Middelstand. Both will be seen as inferior to, but similar to, the Diploma Kaufmann/frau.

So, I think this really depends on the sort of firms you are looking at. Unlike the US and UK, the MBA is still a niche and nacent qualification in Germany. Germany universities are all pretty good, and the idea that one traditional research university is very much better than another s a bit odd to many Germans.
I think this choice depends a lot on which part of the job market you are aiming at. The MBA is relatively new in Germany. Unlike the USA, Canada or UK, the market for post-experience business degrees is rather limited. If you are aiming at big multinationals like Accenture, Microsoft, SAP, McKinsey or BASF then they will be real connoisseurs of the MBA market. Illinois might not impress them. There's no employers in Germany than employ even a handful of Illinois MBAs. So, it's slim leverage.

Of course anyone who compares the MBA with the LSE diploma will see the difference. However, almost no-one will do that in the German Middelstand. Both will be seen as inferior to, but similar to, the Diploma Kaufmann/frau.

So, I think this really depends on the sort of firms you are looking at. Unlike the US and UK, the MBA is still a niche and nacent qualification in Germany. Germany universities are all pretty good, and the idea that one traditional research university is very much better than another s a bit odd to many Germans.
quote
Duncan
One more thought. Many German people who dig into these qualifications will compare the ECTS points. The LSE qualification is equal to one year of full time study, so roughly 60 ECTS. The MBA is, depending on the school, 60 to 120 ECTS.
One more thought. Many German people who dig into these qualifications will compare the ECTS points. The LSE qualification is equal to one year of full time study, so roughly 60 ECTS. The MBA is, depending on the school, 60 to 120 ECTS.
quote
Marksy
Hi both,

I wasn’t aware that the ESCP Master isn’t accredited as they advertise on the homepage with a triple crown accreditation at the bottom of their page. Obviously the accreditation don’t cover the Executive Master.

At a first glance it was too attractive to believe as it is true. Would you rather recommend the LSE MBA Essentials or LSE Graduate Diploma in Management? Moreover the University of Maryland seems to offer a quite interesting opportunity to strengthen own skills for little money (https://www.edx.org/micromasters/USMx-UMD-MBA-Core-Curriculum). Besides, the university is good ranked (TOP 100) throughout the last years in FT Global MBA ranking.

But how about these programs I additionally found:
https://extension.berkeley.edu/public/category/courseCategoryCertificateProfile.do?method=load&certificateId=17105&selectedProgramAreaId=11463&selectedProgramStreamId=15567
https://www1.imd.org/mba/mba-reflections/top-online-mba-programs/?MRK_CMPG_SOURCE=webletter-issue09-17 (Unfortunately they don’t drop a word on the fees)
https://www.ecornell.com/certificates/project-leadership-and-systems-design/systems-thinking/ (Very interesting for me to shift up my skills in solving problems and visualize them adequately)
https://www.cmu.edu/tepper/programs/mba/program-options/part-time-online-hybrid/index.html (Just wondering why the university isn’t ranked in the Online MBA list, although being ranked at 40 on the Global MBA list for 2018. Maybe because it is a hybrid model with a few onsite study time).

As far as I understood, Duncan, after I would have finished the LSE Graduate Diploma, I could use the earned credit points for an MBA to achieve. Right? Or is the diploma some sort of standalone-solution, spending £2155 and getting the certificate in the end? Referring to what you said, the credit points are worth considering the LSE program as an MBA should be able to reach by completing some extra units from the university, which award an MBA for 60 credit points. Maybe completing an MBA at Durham or Warwick.
I was wondering as you mentioned Accenture and the others in context of that they won’t be impressed by the Illinois MBA. Warwick would be good, but not possible for me paying the studies by myself. However, I can’t imagine that only those finishing INSEAD, Oxford or HEC are those getting these top-notch jobs. In Germany, as far as I know, the companies – especially the consulting firms – do like German universities as the WHU, LMU, HHL or Mannheim.

Currently I do not plan to change my job, but want to be well equipped if I need some day. Preparation, strengthening skills and saving money are the fundamental basics I have in mind thinking about an MBA/diploma. All I need is an opportunity with an excellent price-performance-ratio. LSE seems to be not the worst choice I could take with regards to the costs. But is the Bradford MBA core course also such a good offer?

Sorry for asking some more questions, but before I start studying I want to be sure having considered everything.
Hi both,

I wasn’t aware that the ESCP Master isn’t accredited as they advertise on the homepage with a triple crown accreditation at the bottom of their page. Obviously the accreditation don’t cover the Executive Master.

At a first glance it was too attractive to believe as it is true. Would you rather recommend the LSE MBA Essentials or LSE Graduate Diploma in Management? Moreover the University of Maryland seems to offer a quite interesting opportunity to strengthen own skills for little money (https://www.edx.org/micromasters/USMx-UMD-MBA-Core-Curriculum). Besides, the university is good ranked (TOP 100) throughout the last years in FT Global MBA ranking.

But how about these programs I additionally found:
https://extension.berkeley.edu/public/category/courseCategoryCertificateProfile.do?method=load&certificateId=17105&selectedProgramAreaId=11463&selectedProgramStreamId=15567
https://www1.imd.org/mba/mba-reflections/top-online-mba-programs/?MRK_CMPG_SOURCE=webletter-issue09-17 (Unfortunately they don’t drop a word on the fees)
https://www.ecornell.com/certificates/project-leadership-and-systems-design/systems-thinking/ (Very interesting for me to shift up my skills in solving problems and visualize them adequately)
https://www.cmu.edu/tepper/programs/mba/program-options/part-time-online-hybrid/index.html (Just wondering why the university isn’t ranked in the Online MBA list, although being ranked at 40 on the Global MBA list for 2018. Maybe because it is a hybrid model with a few onsite study time).

As far as I understood, Duncan, after I would have finished the LSE Graduate Diploma, I could use the earned credit points for an MBA to achieve. Right? Or is the diploma some sort of standalone-solution, spending £2155 and getting the certificate in the end? Referring to what you said, the credit points are worth considering the LSE program as an MBA should be able to reach by completing some extra units from the university, which award an MBA for 60 credit points. Maybe completing an MBA at Durham or Warwick.
I was wondering as you mentioned Accenture and the others in context of that they won’t be impressed by the Illinois MBA. Warwick would be good, but not possible for me paying the studies by myself. However, I can’t imagine that only those finishing INSEAD, Oxford or HEC are those getting these top-notch jobs. In Germany, as far as I know, the companies – especially the consulting firms – do like German universities as the WHU, LMU, HHL or Mannheim.

Currently I do not plan to change my job, but want to be well equipped if I need some day. Preparation, strengthening skills and saving money are the fundamental basics I have in mind thinking about an MBA/diploma. All I need is an opportunity with an excellent price-performance-ratio. LSE seems to be not the worst choice I could take with regards to the costs. But is the Bradford MBA core course also such a good offer?

Sorry for asking some more questions, but before I start studying I want to be sure having considered everything.
quote
Duncan
Lots of questions.
LYES87 doesn't say it's unaccredited. He says its unofficial: in France (and some other countries) degrees have to be approved by the state. Many ESCP degrees are but this one is not. It's a university diploma rather than a state diploma. That means a lot in France but perhaps not elsewhere.
I would recommend the diploma over the Essentials course, or any other non-credit course because the diploma is an academic qualification with solid assessment, which can be valued in ECTS and grades, while the non-credit course is not. The Maryland core is very good value but, again, I am not sure if comes with academic credit that would be accepted outside UM. You should check in advance with schools that allow top-up MBAs (most British former polytechnics do) but I assume someone will accept the LSE's diploma. However, because the qualification is technically at the level of a final year undergraduate degree and because the UoL doesn't issue ECTS points for all its courses it might be hard to transfer. No triple-crown school will accept transfer credits from another school, sadly.

Consulting firms do like German universities as the WHU, LMU, HHL or Mannheim, but they trend to prefer MSc graduates to MBAs for the obvious reason that the MSc students are building on a BSc in BWL while the MBAs are normally new to management studies.

Bradford has removed the MBA core from its certificate, sadly.
Lots of questions.
LYES87 doesn't say it's unaccredited. He says its unofficial: in France (and some other countries) degrees have to be approved by the state. Many ESCP degrees are but this one is not. It's a university diploma rather than a state diploma. That means a lot in France but perhaps not elsewhere.
I would recommend the diploma over the Essentials course, or any other non-credit course because the diploma is an academic qualification with solid assessment, which can be valued in ECTS and grades, while the non-credit course is not. The Maryland core is very good value but, again, I am not sure if comes with academic credit that would be accepted outside UM. You should check in advance with schools that allow top-up MBAs (most British former polytechnics do) but I assume someone will accept the LSE's diploma. However, because the qualification is technically at the level of a final year undergraduate degree and because the UoL doesn't issue ECTS points for all its courses it might be hard to transfer. No triple-crown school will accept transfer credits from another school, sadly.

Consulting firms do like German universities as the WHU, LMU, HHL or Mannheim, but they trend to prefer MSc graduates to MBAs for the obvious reason that the MSc students are building on a BSc in BWL while the MBAs are normally new to management studies.

Bradford has removed the MBA core from its certificate, sadly.
quote
Marksy
In the end you would recommend the LSE diploma and not starting with an MBA from Illinois or Durham, right?
Warwick seems to be first choice, but is out of my range - sadly. Studying at Illinois sounds as if it is useless, if you want to convince German recruiters. Am I correct saying that hardly no MBA which can be afforable to pay is worth to be considered?

When transfer isn't possible I would study minimum a year not having a regular degree. In opposite I could go for an MBA spending two years and polishing my CV. Thanks for being that patient, but I fear making a wrong decision and wasting not only mony in the end.
In the end you would recommend the LSE diploma and not starting with an MBA from Illinois or Durham, right?
Warwick seems to be first choice, but is out of my range - sadly. Studying at Illinois sounds as if it is useless, if you want to convince German recruiters. Am I correct saying that hardly no MBA which can be afforable to pay is worth to be considered?

When transfer isn't possible I would study minimum a year not having a regular degree. In opposite I could go for an MBA spending two years and polishing my CV. Thanks for being that patient, but I fear making a wrong decision and wasting not only mony in the end.
quote
Duncan
In the end this depends very much on the employers you want to aim at, on the time and resources you have. A good MBA helps with firms that know the MBA. With a traditional German firm, a German qualification may be better.
In the end this depends very much on the employers you want to aim at, on the time and resources you have. A good MBA helps with firms that know the MBA. With a traditional German firm, a German qualification may be better.
quote

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